How to Scale Your Business Without Burning Out: Lessons from the Executive Edge Live Panel
Fast growth is exciting—until it starts to cost you your health, your team, or your culture. If you’re a founder or executive scaling quickly, this blog is your wake-up call and roadmap rolled into one.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Harley Green hosted a powerhouse session on the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast: 🎙️ Executive Edge Live Panel, featuring:
Bethany LaFlam – Author of The Power of OPE, Investor, & Attorney
Christopher Filipiak – Sales Strategist & CEO Coach
Alyshia Kisor-Madlem – VP of People & Systems, Found Search Marketing
Saima Geelani – Core Energy Coach, Founder of Talent Edge World
🔥 The Core Takeaways for High-Growth Leaders
1. Growth Without Alignment = Guaranteed Burnout
Bethany LaFlam emphasizes that scaling without clearly defined goals, values, and personal alignment results in setbacks, misdirection, and emotional drain. “If it feels misaligned, it probably is.”
2. Your Energy Is Your Biggest Asset
Saima Geelani explains how invisible drains like unclear boundaries and internal “gremlins” (self-limiting beliefs) lead to burnout. She recommends core energy leadership and micro-recovery practices to maintain momentum.
3. Letting Go Is a Leadership Superpower
Alyshia Kisor-Madlem shares real-life experience from scaling agency teams. The difference between heroic contributors and sustainable systems? Documentation, delegation, and trusting your team before you hit crisis mode.
4. Sales Starts with the CEO—But Shouldn’t End There
Christopher Filipiak reframes sales as a leadership responsibility rooted in mindset, not just tactics. When CEOs align with sales emotionally and operationally, they stop being bottlenecks—and start leading scalable systems.
5. Protect Team Morale with Transparency
Your team isn’t just watching what you say—they’re filling in the blanks when you don’t say anything. Clear, consistent communication protects morale and builds buy-in.
💡 Real Growth Feels Energizing—Not Exhausting
Whether you’re a solopreneur adding your first team member or a CEO managing multiple departments, these insights are a must-know.
This isn’t just about growth—it’s about building something that lasts without losing yourself or your people along the way.
If you’re serious about scaling smart—not just fast—your next move isn’t another 12-hour workday. It’s getting the right support system behind you.
Book a free discovery call with Workergenix to get matched with your Ultimate Executive Assistant—so you can scale faster without burning out.
Like what you read? Get weekly insights on scaling, efficiency, and profitability—straight to your inbox. Click here to subscribe.
Transcript
Harley Green: All right, everybody, welcome to the Executive Edge live panel. I’m Harley Green, founder and CEO of Workergenix, where we help business leaders scale faster and smarter with the very best AI-leveraged executive assistants. This month’s panel is all about one of the biggest challenges business leaders face, growing fast without sacrificing your health, your team, and your culture. Sustainable growth, it’s not just a strategy, it’s really a leadership test. And today we’re gonna dive deep into the real mechanics of scale.
You’ll hear strategies, honest stories, and tangible frameworks from leaders who have been there and done that without the burnout. And a quick heads up, today’s session is also going to be featured on our podcast, Scale Smart Grow Fast. So if you hear something that hits home, you’ll be able to replay it later on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube. So today, let’s go ahead and dive in and meet today’s incredible panel.
First, we’ve got Bethany LaFlam, an attorney, investor, and bestselling author. Bethany helps entrepreneurs scale their wealth and freedom through strategic leverage, not burnout. She’s the author of The Power of OPE and leads a global movement to build aligned extraordinary lives.
Christopher Filipiak, sales consultant and coach. He works with CEOs of expert-based businesses to 12x growth through mindset and sales alignment. His integrated approach helps leaders add over a million dollars in revenue without losing control or energy.
We also have Alyshia Madlem, the VP of People and Systems, Found Search Marketing. With over 20 years in marketing agency leadership, Alyshia has scaled teams through acquisition and built operational systems that protect culture while driving performance.
And finally, last but not least, we’ve got Saima Geelani, founder of Talent Edge World. Saima is a globally experienced coach and HR leader who helps executives lead with clarity, energy, and purpose. Her core energy coaching framework builds leadership that sustains both performance and well-being. Welcome, everyone, to the panel.
Let’s start here. What does sustainable scale mean to you? And why do so many leaders get it wrong?
Saima Geelani: For me, sustainable scale is really like increasing the productivity of the organization while not losing focus on the energy, on the clarity and above all, the well-being of the people. What happens mostly when leaders get it wrong is when they primarily focus on the productivity, they focus on the numbers, they focus on the metrics. That’s absolutely fine, there is nothing wrong about it. But the problem is while doing so, they lose focus primarily on the well-being of the people.
Recently, I had gone through this book, Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek, where he says that when we ask the CEO what is your priority, they usually say customers. That might be true for small companies, but as the companies scale up, they grow bigger and that connection becomes smaller and eventually it becomes zero. So what is the truth here? The truth is CEOs or the leaders are responsible for the people and people eventually take care of your customers. So you really have to start backwards. That is where leaders really get it wrong.
Alyshia Kisor-Madlem: I think to build on that, often the focus is on numbers where people say, “I want to grow margin to something,” or “I want to grow year over year.” They lose the purpose. They lose who they are. They lose the connection to mission, vision and values. That’s what drives purpose and why. That’s what gets people to put in the time it takes to achieve those new margins and growth.
It starts to be this focus on hitting a numerical value instead of looking at the full growth journey—growing people or growing services or whatever it is you provide. You lose the connection to why you started or what you’re doing. People get disengaged and you start to see that downtrend very quickly.
Bethany LaFlam: I love that we’re having this conversation because I think too often we focus on the numbers and not on the people who get us there. The biggest thing for scaling, of course, is to leverage other people. I wrote a whole book on it. I specifically say leverage and not use because we want to make sure that we’re building up those people. It’s only sustainable if it’s a win for everybody. Everyone that’s helping you get to your vision and your dream—it has to help them get to theirs. It’s got to work for everybody. We lose sight of that when we focus just on the numerical metrics.
Christopher Filipiak: When you’re thinking about doing something sustainably, it means you can do it for a long time and it doesn’t eat away at your base-level resources. As you grow your company, or grow anything or grow yourself, you have more of something, not less. That’s the kind of growth we want.
It’s about developing the skill sets in your organization around change and growth. How can you build a culture that embraces and has the skills required to continually change and grow? When you develop that as a competency, that’s going to create sustainability in the people and in the organization as a whole.
Harley Green: Great insights there. I’m excited to dive into some of the things you all said. Bethany, you write about Aligned Living. What’s the cost when founders scale misaligned and how can they catch that early?
Bethany LaFlam: I think the biggest cost is misalignment in your business, which could mean a number of things. If it’s not driving toward a stated goal or big vision, that’s a problem. People get this wrong a lot. They don’t state the goal. They’re busy running a business and they’ll figure it out later. But if you’re just working to work and you don’t really know where you’re headed, that’s going to lead to misalignment.
You end up growing for the sake of growth, but it’s not scalable or sustainable. Then you find yourself being pulled back—one step forward, two steps back. If you’re not aligned, you are going to backslide. It’ll take longer to get to your goal. Either you haven’t identified it, or you have people outside their lanes. Entrepreneurs are notorious for trying to do all the things.
How can you catch it early? Stop quieting that voice, that inner knowing. I know it doesn’t seem logical, and it seems really soft. But especially as women, we’ve been conditioned to quiet that voice down. If it feels misaligned, it probably is. Trust that. Recalibrate. That feeling is just as important as the data. If something is painful, your job is to figure out how to make it not painful. Anyone who says it just has to suck for a really long time—don’t listen to that. It doesn’t. Your job is to get through the suck as fast as possible and actually enjoy your life.
Christopher Filipiak: That’s a really interesting awareness. As you grow your business and yourself, there’s good and bad in everything. One person’s “suck” could be another person’s passion. Alignment comes from being aware of that and choosing where to put your focus. If you’re not in love with your work or your business, you’re going to self-sabotage. You’ll spend more time in the suck than in the love.
Bethany LaFlam: The biggest obstacle is our mindset. I’ve spent hundreds of thousands on coaching just to shift my mindset and remind myself—I get to do the things I love because I said so.
Saima Geelani: I agree. From a coaching perspective, it’s about listening to your inner self—your inner “who.” That’s where the magic happens. That’s where you find your passion and energy.
Harley Green: Christopher, you coach CEOs through high-stakes sales growth. How do you help them expand revenue without becoming the bottleneck?
Christopher Filipiak: It’s about understanding what sales really is. You started a business, and sales is a part of that. But sales is also an expression of love and service. There’s a mindset component to it: mastering your own sales work as the CEO. No resistance to strangers, no resistance to sales, no limiting beliefs around money. You need awareness around those things so they don’t stop you.
Once you’re aligned with sales and money, you start selecting strategies, behaviors, and teammates based on cause and effect—not fear, worry, or doubt. That creates flow. And that frees you up from being the bottleneck.
Alyshia Kisor-Madlem: I’d add to that. As operators, we help visionary CEOs get what’s in their head out into the world. Once you start selling, you need others to understand what you do so you’re not the only person who can do the job. At some point, someone else has to get it too. CEOs need to figure out what only they can do, what they can train others to do, and what they can let go of.
Sometimes, it’s about having trusted people around you—employees or advisors—who can say, “You can’t keep doing it all.” Let go. Build trust. Surround yourself with people who can scale the mission without making it all about you.
Christopher Filipiak: Exactly. Build the skills and strategies into the business, not just into one person. As you do that, the CEO is free to do what they love most. Every CEO is different, so the goal is to build a system that doesn’t rely on one personality.
Saima Geelani: I love that Alicia mentioned letting go. It’s like parenting. You let your kids do things on their own, trusting them even if they fail at first. That’s how they learn. Same with teams. Trust them. Be there to support them. That’s how trust grows, and so does your business.
Harley Green: Great answers. Alyshia, you’ve led teams through growth and acquisition. What were some breaking points you had to solve, and what did you learn about scaling people—not just processes?
Alyshia Kisor-Madlem: The biggest thing I’ve seen is the difference between heroic contributors and operationalization. Small companies often start with one or two heroic contributors—they do everything. But you can’t scale if you’re dependent on a few people. You have to get the information out of their heads and operationalize it.
If you don’t, you create single points of failure and even “unfireable” people. Maybe they don’t fit anymore, but you’re shackled to them because no one else knows what they know. You need to build training, documentation, and backups early on. If not, you get stuck in a cycle: grow, lose something, grow again, lose again. You never really get ahead.
Bethany LaFlam: That still comes back to letting go. If the CEO can’t let go, you can’t put systems in place. And that’s often a mindset issue—feeling like you have to prove your worth. But your team wants you out of the weeds. They want to run in their lane while you stay in yours.
Saima Geelani: Exactly. It’s about trusting yourself and the team. Clear vision, clear direction. Otherwise, your team is just doing tasks, not driving toward a shared destination.
Harley Green: Saima, your work focuses on leadership energy. What are the invisible drains leaders often overlook, and how can they recover momentum before burnout?
Saima Geelani: The invisible drains are your internal narratives. In coaching, we call them gremlins. They’re meant to keep you safe, but really they make you smaller. One example: “I can’t stop. I have to keep going.” Even on vacation, some leaders keep checking in. That sends the wrong message—it says you don’t trust your team.
There’s a book, Taming Your Gremlins by Rick Carson, that helps with this. It starts with self-awareness. Then you embrace the gremlin, and start to overcome it. Also, you need clear boundaries. When roles aren’t clear, leaders end up doing everything—strategy, ops, admin—and burn out. Good leadership requires boundaries, trust, and space to breathe.
Alyshia Kisor-Madlem: I love that energy came up. Energy is a finite resource, just like time or money. You need to track what tasks give or drain your energy. That can shape how you design your day, price your services, and build your team. It’s not fluff—it’s vital.
Bethany LaFlam: We use something from Dan Martell’s Buy Back Your Time—a time and energy audit. Not just what takes time, but what drains bandwidth. If someone’s dragging, we ask: Are you working outside your lane? Are you stuck in tasks that drain you? Maybe someone else loves that work. It’s all about fit.
Harley Green: Let’s talk about trade-offs. What’s one hard decision you made to protect your energy or your team’s, and how did you make peace with it?
Saima Geelani: Maybe I can speak to that. Two years ago, I moved from France to the United States. I was fortunate to get a leadership role within a month. My background is in talent development—the soft side of HR. Over time, I realized my work wasn’t aligned with my values. My role was meant to support well-being programs, but the leadership was only focused on productivity and metrics. Both approaches have merit, but we weren’t aligned.
Eventually, I decided to resign. That was tough. I still remember how hard it was to press that send button on my resignation email. But I listened to my inner voice. I paused, reflected, and discovered coaching. That was my passion all along. Now, I get to work with anyone I want. I’m free to do the work that lights me up. I believe life is not a game to win or lose—it’s meant to be played. So enjoy the journey.
Bethany LaFlam: I want to add to that. At one point, we had a high-paying client who had the power to refer us—or not. But they were abusive to my team. I made the hard call to fire them. I wanted my team to know that I’d protect them over the money. Sure, it was risky—they could’ve trashed our reputation. But I did it respectfully. That move told my team: I’ve got your back, and your well-being matters more than any client.
Harley Green: That ties into a live question from our audience. Kedra asked: Can you talk about the importance of team morale and what leaders can do to inspire and encourage their teams?
Alyshia Kisor-Madlem: Great question. As leaders, we have a lot of behind-the-scenes conversations. And we don’t always share those with the team. But your team craves information—they want to know what’s going on. You have to define what transparency looks like in your company, and then commit to it. Let people in. Show them that you’re in this too—not just barking orders from the top.
Whether things are going well or you’re facing challenges, acknowledge it. Let them know what’s changing and why. That level of communication and buy-in directly impacts morale. Especially in tough times, the message should be: We see it, we’re working on it, and we’re in this together.
Saima Geelani: I couldn’t agree more. Lack of clear communication causes chaos. In energy leadership, we talk about seven levels of energy. When communication is unclear, people drop into Level 2—frustration and anger. Even your best people start to burn out.
Alyshia Kisor-Madlem: And you can’t stop DMs—whether on Slack, Teams, whatever. If you’re not communicating, people will fill in the blanks. They’ll start creating their own narratives, and those usually aren’t friendly to leadership. You need to get ahead of it. Share information openly and often to control the story.
Bethany LaFlam: Yes.
Saima Geelani: Absolutely.
Christopher Filipiak: As leaders, we have to model the attitude and culture we want to see. Everything in business has cycles—ups and downs. If your emotions are controlled by the circumstances, the whole organization becomes reactive. Instead, model emotional stability. Teach it as a skill. Hire people who want to participate in that kind of culture.
Morale, culture, and mindset are choices we get to make every day. And it’s easier to choose a better attitude when you’re aligned with your purpose. If you’re just chasing numbers, you burn out. But if you love what you do, you expand your energy and see more opportunities.
Harley Green: Excellent. Now, to wrap things up, I’ve got a lightning round question for everyone. What’s your best advice for a business leader who wants to scale without burnout? And as you answer, please share the best way for our audience to connect with you.
Christopher Filipiak: Think of scaling without burnout as a skill set. Ask yourself: What’s the skill set I need to develop around burnout? That starts with learning to feel your emotions and move through them to gain clarity. Also, have someone in your corner—a coach or mentor—who can help you see blind spots like overworking or poor hiring choices. Best way to connect:christopherfilipiak.com or LinkedIn.
Bethany LaFlam: Know your lane and stay in it. Your lane is where three things overlap: what you’re amazing at, what lights you up, and what moves you toward your life goals. Do only what lives in that lane and build a team to handle the rest. You get to do that. Find support to make it happen. Best way to reach me is on Instagram:@bethany_laflam.
Saima Geelani: Lead with your anabolic energy—that’s high-vibration, trust-based leadership. Energy is contagious. If you show up with purpose and positivity, your team will reflect that. It’s the best path to scale without stress. Connect with me at talentedgeworld.com or LinkedIn: Saima Geelani.
Alyshia Kisor-Madlem: Be solid in your mission, vision, values, and purpose. Build from that foundation. It’s what keeps people aligned and energized, especially when things get hard. Connect with me on LinkedIn: Alyshia Kisor-Madlem.
Harley Green: Thank you to all of our panelists for sharing real strategies, honest insights, and leadership wisdom. And thank you to everyone who joined us live. Remember—scaling isn’t just about growth. It’s about protecting what makes that growth worth it. If you’re ready to scale with the right support, check out our free masterclass atworkergenix.com/bonus-masterclass. We’ll see you at the next Executive Edge Live.
How to Turn Your Team into a High-Performing Asset (Without Burnout)
If your team is your biggest investment, why aren’t they delivering your biggest return?
In a recent episode of the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast, host Harley Green sat down with Katie Close, transformational leadership coach and founder of Self Mastery, Entrepreneur Evolution. Katie shared a powerful 6-part framework that helps leaders transform their teams into aligned, efficient, and high-ROI assets—without burnout or bloated headcounts.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Here’s what growth-minded founders and executives need to know:
1. Strategic Clarity Drives Everything
Vision isn’t just a poster on the wall. According to Katie, strategic clarity must be embedded into daily operations and decisions. Without it, you risk hiring misaligned team members and wasting energy on low-ROI activities.
2. People Need Defined Roles and Accountability
Too many leaders expect new hires to “figure it out.” Katie emphasizes clear role definitions, consistent processes, and aligned expectations as key drivers of performance and satisfaction.
3. Process Before People
Before hiring, first fix your systems. Throwing more people at unclear workflows only creates expensive inefficiencies. Align structure and operations before expanding the team.
4. Hire Support for the Visionary
Visionary leaders often live on the edge of growth and chaos. Hiring an executive assistant or integrator helps bring structure to vision, translating ideas into execution and freeing the visionary to focus on innovation.
5. Emotional Intelligence is Non-Negotiable
Leadership isn’t just strategy—it’s psychology. Katie highlights how subconscious beliefs and unprocessed emotions can sabotage leadership. Emotional intelligence helps leaders stay grounded, navigate setbacks, and maintain the energy needed to inspire others.
6. Start With Honest Conversations
Want to improve your team’s performance? Start by asking: “What’s working, what’s not, and what should we change?” Katie calls this the “1% conversation”—a simple practice that catches small issues before they become big problems.
“Scale smart before you grow fast.”
Katie’s final advice? Optimize the human side of your business. Emotional patterns, clarity gaps, and poor delegation habits are the silent killers of growth. Get intentional, get honest, and start leading smarter.
Workergenix pairs you with an Ultimate Executive Assistant to bring clarity, systems, and execution to your vision—book a free discovery call today.
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Transcript:
Harley Green: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast. Now, if your people are your greatest investment, why aren’t they delivering the strongest ROI? In this episode, Katie Close, Transformational Leadership Coach and founder of Self Mastery, Entrepreneur Evolution, shares how business leaders can align strategy, structure, and emotional intelligence to unlock their team’s true potential. Drawing from over two decades of experience, Katie reveals six key framework items that help transform expensive overhead into consistent high performance enabling growth without burnout. Katie, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?
Katie: Hi Harley, thank you. Yes, well.
Harley Green: Great, now Katie, maybe you can share a little bit more about your background. What brought you to helping others with their people now?
Katie: Well, my husband and I, when we got married, we had these master degrees and we had envisioned ourselves in the workplace to some degree, but he had this stirring for entrepreneurship. So very quickly we are building a moving company from scratch. We got a truck and now we’re building a company. I was a little bit surprised about how emotional that journey was because if I’m getting straight A’s through a master’s program, why am I not figuring out business? It actually required something distinct from us. We went through some highs and lows that we weren’t expecting.
We then got into the transformational work of people in nonprofits, because I was very inspired by that. Organizational leadership, yes, but really keying in on the individual. I often say that team is made up of I’s. They just all get together and figure out how to harmonize and become an efficient organization for the intended purpose or mission.
When I really started to take my time with individuals and actually individuals that were on the brink of severe challenges—and through a nonprofit, it was a lot of drug and alcohol addiction—and those people, they need to change. You don’t have the convenience of when or how or if. It’s now. It’s essential.
Watching that transformation, I saw how much of it occurred at a subconscious and emotional level. Then I started to apply a lot of that for business. We draw out our patterns. Especially if we have margins, we just allow them to be eaten up by overhead. I know you guys just recently had a podcast about increasing head count, just more people as if that’s going to solve what people. What are they going to have to feel, think and exchange in the organization?
I started doing that for us. We opened up another business—we had sold our moving one—but we opened up a lawn and landscaping one. People saw the transformations that were occurring and started asking me to coach. Again, I love people. So I was happy to do that. And I’ve continued to do that as we’ve had a number of other businesses. We’ve sold some, building other ones, looking to buy one again recently.
I go in and help other businesses with those underlying dynamics that often get lost. We know ourselves, right? I don’t know, Harley, if you’ve ever experienced this, but you’re like, I’m doing a new workout program, or I’m going to get up at the same time every day, or I’m going to do my work blocks. The idea of it’s good, but our emotional patterns sometimes overtake all of that.
Imagine wanting to change the entire patterns and habits of a whole organization—not just yourself, but the whole thing. That’s, I think, where there’s so much underlying potential, but there’s so much work to be done.
Harley Green: Absolutely. I love what you said about the challenge of changing this whole organization when we struggle just to keep consistent ourselves. One of the things you say is that people are both your greatest expense and greatest return. What makes that alignment so critical for leaders who want real ROI from their team?
Katie: Well, if we bring it back to yourself, we watch a lot of our own internal patterns play out. We’re sometimes very hard on ourselves, on our mistakes, on our patterns. But we have to realize we are—especially if you’re a visionary or one of the key elements—you are one of the greatest assets to your business: your energy, your clarity, your patterns. As you start to believe that, you can start to believe that in your people. But it doesn’t mean it’s just automatic.
There are a number of elements going on. A lot of time people just say, I’ll put in a new person. This person’s driving me nuts. I loved them at first, get them out of here. It’s like dating. You ever see somebody fall in love and the person could do no wrong? They hire them on the first meeting. No real plan or strategy. Just a good feeling. And then they’re out. They’re not doing what I said. I can’t stand it anymore. Get out. Hiring somebody else. Then that person looks like the last. Bob looks a lot like Billy who looks a lot like Luke.
We actually have a way of being that can either make people very expensive for us or make people really optimized and beneficial for us.
Harley Green: Yeah, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about your framework, the six key elements in your framework. What do those consist of?
Katie: We have to be clear on where we’re going. Vision, mission, strategic clarity—if you write it down and put it in a drawer, it’s a start, but often gives a false sense of engagement. There’s a decision every day to live out that clarity. Am I going in the direction I intend? What is or isn’t moving me there? I love quarters because every quarter you can reassess. Every day might be too much, but strategic check-ins help.
Then we have our people, but we’re really choosing them in light of the strategic clarity. A lot of times we think someone will just come in and fix something, but people appreciate clarity and a bit of structure. Visionaries often don’t like being told what to do, but others want direction and structure. That makes for a great organization.
Transparency is another one. We need to be okay with micro mistakes. With good measurables, we facilitate clarity and quick responses to breakdowns. Then we solve root problems—this is where emotional intelligence is key. It takes intentionality, not just fire-fighting. We need process and execution with consistency, building new habits. Otherwise, you’re just adding more people without clear direction or impact.
Harley Green: Yeah. One thing we found in our business was going from chaos to having clear job descriptions, responsibilities, and procedures. There was less chaos, more done, and everyone was happier.
Katie: Exactly.
Harley Green: Of the elements you just talked about, is there any one in particular that has the most impact when not in place? What red flags can people watch for?
Katie: They’re all important, but strategic clarity and the ability to execute it regularly stand out. You can’t just write it and put it away—even putting it on the wall isn’t enough. It must be in the habits of your people. If you can integrate it daily, people start to figure it out and embody it.
It’s hard to scale if people have to read you all the time. That’s why having an operational person or executive assistant to bridge the gap is essential. Visionaries iterate a lot. Not everyone wants to live on the edge with them. An assistant can stabilize execution, allowing the visionary to keep creating.
Harley Green: What would you say to that visionary who doesn’t have an assistant yet? How do you communicate the benefits?
Katie: This year I’ve had a true executive assistant. My day is full of creativity and new decisions. I’m less bogged down, and I didn’t realize how much the little stuff was wearing me out. Yes, it’s a bit of a risk, but I’d talk to a visionary using words like “risk,” “return,” “creativity,” and “freedom.” That’s what they want.
I also host twice-monthly workshop calls for a visionary and their assistant or integrator. They both need to be there. Visionaries are bigger-than-life people—they often undervalue that stabilizing role. We’re often in survival mode, thinking we have to bring in the money, make stuff happen. But we need structure and people who can create that calm.
Harley Green: You mentioned freedom and time. Sometimes visionaries feel guilty when their assistant is working and they’re at their kid’s ballgame. What would you say to that?
Katie: Great question. Guilt is often systemic—it’s not always just your feeling. It could come from cultural or family conditioning. Maybe you were told you’re lazy if not busy. We need to recognize that conditioning.
Visionaries need to focus on their energy. That’s the most valuable thing. If going to the ballgame re-energizes you and you come back with more clarity and drive, that’s invaluable. But if you check out and don’t come back energized, then yeah, maybe it’s an issue. Your job is to
Harley Green: That leads into another question. How does emotional intelligence factor into team optimization?
Katie: We have this prefrontal cortex where we set goals and get strategic, but a big driver in our brain is the limbic system—our emotions. We are moved by how we feel: respected, powerful, free. Tools like the Predictive Index and Culture Index help uncover work motivators.
Money can only motivate so much. Emotional intelligence allows leaders to notice and work through things like burnout, stress, disappointment, regret—all of which affect creativity and leadership. Ray Dalio said, “Pain plus reflection equals progress.” We need to reflect to grow.
Harley Green: So when aligning people, strategy, and systems, what mindset shifts do leaders need?
Katie: Let’s play with this. When you take on more systems, part of you probably goes, “Woohoo,” especially if you don’t have to build them. But is there a part of you that resists?
Harley Green: Definitely. Sunk cost fallacy comes to mind. “It’s worked this far, why change it?”
Katie: Okay, so why change what’s working?
Harley Green: If the ROI is better—if it helps us or our clients more—then it’s worth it.
Katie: Have you had it work out?
Harley Green: Yes, in our lending business we switched platforms, and it’s been great.
Katie: If it hasn’t worked out, there’s still something to learn. Sometimes we don’t reflect on what went wrong. That’s where expensive entrepreneurial education becomes valuable if we show up for it. Reflect and evolve.
Harley Green: What are some examples of subconscious issues holding leaders back?
Katie: I had a client who loved freedom and thought everyone wanted the same. They hired salespeople with no structure, thinking autonomy equals performance. But it was abdication, not delegation. The hires weren’t held accountable, and it blew up. One hire even reminded the client of his father. It was subconscious patterning playing out.
Harley Green: Wow.
Katie: We all have those patterns. The subconscious says, “I got you,” whether that’s brushing your teeth or repeating emotional cycles. We have to examine which patterns serve us and which don’t.
Harley Green: What’s one practical step leaders can take this week to start that shift?
Katie: Have a safe, honest conversation with each person on your team. Ask: What’s working? What’s not? What would you change? You don’t have to implement it all, but it gives you awareness. We call it the “1% conversation.” Catch the issue at 1% before it becomes a 50% problem.
Harley Green: Katie, thank you so much for sharing these actionable strategies. Where can people connect with you?
Katie: Visit katieclose.com. I offer coaching for both the executive and their organization. We do group work every quarter around the six elements. Harvard Business Review says a $10M business can lose $2M yearly in operational inefficiencies. If $2M motivates you, come check it out.
Harley Green: If you got value from this episode, hit like and subscribe so you don’t miss future strategies to help you scale smarter. Share this with someone who needs it. Thanks for tuning in!
Marketing Without Strategy Is Costing You More Than You Think
If you’re a small business leader juggling roles and drowning in “random acts of marketing,” this one’s for you. In our latest episode of Scale Smart, Grow Fast, Harley Green sat down with Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, to talk about why marketing strategy must come before tactics and technology—especially AI.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
🎯 Why Most Marketing Fails Small Business Owners
Many founders approach marketing with a to-do list: “We need a new website, some paid ads, maybe some SEO.” But as Sara shares, without a clear strategy, you risk spending thousands with little return—and a lot of frustration.
Her team often steps into companies spending $10K+ monthly on marketing with no idea what’s working. Sound familiar?
🧭 What Strategic Marketing Actually Looks Like
Sara breaks down a proven process that includes:
A marketing and brand audit
Ideal client interviews
Competitive research
Messaging development
Customer journey mapping
A focused execution calendar
This foundational work brings clarity, confidence, and control—and often helps businesses do less with better results.
🤖 Don’t Just “Do AI” — Train It on Strategy
With AI tools like ChatGPT trending, Sara warns against adopting them without intention. Instead:
Align business and marketing goals.
Identify your team’s gaps.
Choose AI tools based on specific objectives.
Train AI with your brand voice, values, and strategy.
Smart AI integration enhances your marketing—it doesn’t replace strategy.
🧠 From Doers to Managers: Elevating Your Marketing Team
Sara also emphasizes helping teams evolve by:
Auditing their roles
Identifying tasks AI can support
Upskilling them into strategy-focused roles
Bringing in a fractional CMO (like Duct Tape Marketing offers) can help founders stay in their zone of genius while giving their team the guidance and structure to succeed.
🚀 Take Action: Start with Strategy
If you’re scaling a business and overwhelmed with marketing decisions, here’s Sara’s advice:
“Don’t rush into AI or shiny tools. Start with your business goals, then build a marketing strategy that supports them. Everything else should flow from there.”
Schedule a free discovery call to see how an ultimate executive assistant from Workergenix can free up your time to focus on what really drives growth.
Like what you read? Get weekly insights on scaling, efficiency, and profitability—straight to your inbox. Click here to subscribe.
Transcript
Harley Green: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Scale Smart, Grow Fast podcast. Now in today’s fast-paced business world, growth without intention leads to exhaustion and missed opportunities. In this episode, Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, shares how leaders can scale strategically by aligning their marketing efforts, leveraging AI, and building a team that thrives. With over a decade of experience advising thousands of business owners, Sara offers a grounded, actionable approach to sustainable growth that protects your energy and maximizes your impact.
So thank you for being on the podcast today. How are you doing?
Sara Nay: I’m doing well. Thank you for having me on. Excited to be here.
Harley Green: Tell us a little bit more about your background. What brought you to Duct Tape Marketing in this role of helping other people with their marketing?
Sara Nay: Duct Tape Marketing as a business has been around for about 30 years. I actually joined the team back in December 2010 as an intern. I had graduated college, done some traveling, was a ski bum and went to South America for a while, four months or so, and came back and didn’t really know what I was going to pursue. So I started honestly as an intern saying, “Marketing sounds interesting. Let’s see where this goes.” Obviously, it stuck. I’ve been around for about 15 years now in the company. Even though I started as an intern back in the day, I’ve moved throughout the company through multiple different roles. I was community manager for a while, account manager. I served as fractional CMO to our clients for a while, COO, sales. Most recently, last year, I moved into the seat as CEO. I’ve been involved in all the different areas of a marketing agency at this point and have learned a lot along the way.
Harley Green: I can imagine. That is quite the journey and I think it speaks to a great business if it’s able to keep someone as talented as you there that long and have all this experience. That’s really impressive.
Sara Nay: Thank you. I caught the bug. Our founder, John Jantsch, is really passionate about serving small businesses. So back when he started Duct Tape Marketing, he saw that marketing was really complicated and confusing for small businesses to buy because they just really didn’t even know what they were buying in a lot of cases. So he set out on a mission to make marketing as simple and practical to the small business space as possible. I’ve really been passionate about that myself now over the years. As I said, I’ve been in the sales role for a while and I’ve seen so many small businesses come to us frustrated that marketing doesn’t work. They’ve tried to hire different agencies. They’re spending all this money. They’re getting complicated reports with no actual customers and all that stuff. So I’ve heard all of these stories myself. I’ve also then walked through taking someone from frustrated with marketing to then creating a strategy, to them understanding the what and the why behind the things they’re doing. I’ve seen that transformation. So that’s caused me to become very driven and passionate to help those small businesses as well.
Harley Green: I think you really are speaking to a lot of the pain points people feel with marketing there. What are some of the examples of strategies that you employ that help marketing stay simple and still impactful?
Sara Nay: A lot of times people will come to marketing companies and they’ll say something like, “I need a new website” or “I need to launch paid ads” or “I need tactics,” essentially. What we’ve always said is strategy needs to come before any tactics. Now we’re even shifting to say strategy needs to come before tactics and technology, because now people are diving into AI without the proper strategy in place. Marketing strategy has so many definitions. We usually work with clients in an initial 30 to 45-day engagement where we are doing things like a marketing and brand audit to get a baseline of their marketing and brand today. We’re interviewing some of their best clients. We are doing competitive research to ultimately develop ideal client profiles or personas and then core messaging. Step one and two of marketing is you need to understand who you’re talking to and what message resonates with them. Then we move more into the planning phase of strategy, which is mapping out the customer journey, mapping out a content strategy, identifying the four to six biggest growth priorities over the next quarter, and putting that all into an execution calendar. A lot of times when I talk to businesses, they’re like, “Yeah, I have a marketing strategy,” and they have a list of tactics. Like, “We’re going to do this, this and this.” That’s a piece of marketing strategy. It’s an important piece, but you need all of the stuff that goes on the front end. If you’re telling me you need to be focused on Meta ads, but your clients aren’t on Facebook, it probably doesn’t make sense. Also, you need to understand what messaging actually resonates with them as well. That’s where I see a lot of people waste money on marketing. They’re just on these channels spending. They don’t have any idea if it’s working or not, but they haven’t put the work in on the front end. A lot of times when you go through creating a marketing strategy, you can actually simplify what you’re doing from a marketing perspective and focus on the right channels with the right message at the right time to your ideal clients.
Harley Green: What are some of the biggest surprises people you’ve worked with have had as they’re going through this process and having this strategy developed, whether it’s finding details about that ideal client or what technologies or platforms they should be using? I’m curious, what are some of those aha moments they’ve had when working with you?
Sara Nay: It’s maybe less “aha moments” and more so clarity is what they’re getting. A lot of small businesses out there are just spending money on marketing. Then I ask them, “Are these channels working for you? Are you hitting specific goals? What are you tracking? Should you keep doing these things?” A lot of times they don’t know. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve started working with a small business when we back up and do strategy, and maybe they’re spending $10,000–$15,000 a month across all of these different channels. When I ask them why, they say, “Because we’ve always done it and we don’t know what’s working and we need to be on these things.” It’s not always ah-has, it’s more about putting clarity behind the why. Analyzing and actually getting metrics and tracking set up. Then understanding what’s working and shifting the budget towards that versus being spread thin across all the channels. So it’s really more of a clarity, confidence, and control thing than anything.
Harley Green: One thing you mentioned is having that strategy before technology, especially with AI coming in and everyone being like, someone said I should use AI in marketing. What kind of advice do you have for people when it comes to making those marketing decisions and staying focused when there are shiny tools everywhere?
Sara Nay: We have a process that I think makes sense for that. A lot of small businesses right now are bringing in AI solutions like ChatGPT. Everyone on their team is doing it differently. There’s no consistency, there’s no proper training for the AI or for the team on how to use it effectively. There are no systems and processes in place. All of a sudden, these teams are confused and creating noise. It’s really important to take a step back. Just like bringing in technology and tools without a reason complicates things. We often say: take a step back, understand the business strategy. What’s the business trying to accomplish? Then map the marketing strategy from there, then analyze your team strategy. Then you can start to say, okay, if these are our specific goals and priorities for the next quarter, here’s who we have in place already as humans. What AI systems can we layer below them? Then you’re bringing in AI to accomplish a specific goal versus just bringing in AI for the sake of it. Once you’ve identified the right tool, say ChatGPT for content repurposing, then you need to train AI on your business—your vision, mission, values, ideal clients, your messaging, how you want to be seen in the world. You give AI that context so when it starts creating or helping with repurposing, it’s on-brand. Your tone of voice matches. You create the strategy, train AI on it, and then have systems in place so your team uses AI consistently rather than everyone doing their own thing.
Harley Green: So having that strategy upfront actually makes it easier to leverage these tools then, because you’re able to take that information that you’ve already developed, feed it into tools like AI, and get much better outputs.
Sara Nay: Yes, and you can even use something like ChatGPT to help with strategy creation on the front end. The important thing is that you’re giving AI the context on your business. I see a lot of stuff on LinkedIn or different platforms where it’s clearly AI-created and generic. That’s a problem when businesses use AI without direction. But if you give AI the context of your business, your viewpoints, values, stories—then it can help you create content that still tells your story. One of our favorite uses of AI is to create a video on a topic you want to be known for, then feed that into AI to repurpose it into different formats. It’s still coming from you. AI just helps you turn that video into emails, blog posts, social posts, and all the things. You’re getting more bang for your time spent, but the core is still you, not generic AI filler.
Harley Green: Great advice. You talked earlier about the business goals and strategy and aligning those things. Where do you see most businesses getting stuck when trying to align marketing with business goals?
Sara Nay: Unfortunately, too many businesses think of them as separate things. They think, we have business objectives and goals over here, and marketing is over there. It’s all siloed. We have a marketing strategy pyramid and the bottom layer is the business strategy. We can’t think about marketing until we understand what the business is trying to accomplish. One example: in sales and onboarding with new clients, I’m always asking things like, what’s your current revenue? Your one-year goal? Your three-year goal? Hopefully, they know the answer. If not, they need to figure that out before we move forward. If I don’t know how aggressive their growth goals are, I don’t know how aggressive we need to be in marketing. If they’re aiming for fast growth, we need a bold marketing push. If they want to streamline and grow steadily, we can be less aggressive but more focused on systems and stability. We also factor in their mission, vision, and values—those need to be part of the marketing strategy and content production because we should represent the brand how they want to be seen. So again, I don’t think of them as separate. It’s business strategy first, then layer marketing strategy on top.
Harley Green: That’s absolutely right. They’re totally connected. Now, many of our listeners are probably wearing multiple hats in their business. What is your approach to building these systems and helping marketing teams that actually support that visionary at the top?
Sara Nay: One of my favorite exercises is having everyone on the team—including the business leader—do a time audit. People don’t love it, but it’s important. Write down everything you’re doing consistently: tasks, priorities, skills. Then analyze: are these things increasing in value because of AI, staying stable, or decreasing? From there, focus your time on the increasing-value work. Bring in AI to support the stable or decreasing tasks. It’s a great way to assess how AI fits in your business. It’s also powerful for your team. There’s a lot of uncertainty when AI enters: “Am I being replaced?” “Will I have to work harder?” If you walk them through this, they’ll see you’re using AI to elevate their role, not erase it. You’re helping them focus on strengths and future-proof their careers. When you identify skill gaps, you know where to invest in training. Marketing teams especially are going from doers to managers. They used to write everything, run SEO, manage ads themselves. Now they manage AI platforms. They’re not managing people, but they are managing systems—which is a different skillset. We’ve invested in helping our team become better communicators, strategic thinkers, and leaders.
Harley Green: I love that. That’s something we always recommend with our clients as well. It’s the exact same process—where can you leverage AI, and maybe there are some things that AI can’t do just yet. That’s where an executive assistant can come in, and maybe they can be the one who helps manage the AI tools as well to help those visionaries stay in that strategic space.
Sara Nay: Yes, exactly. And one thing that I think helps tremendously is bringing in a fractional CMO. That’s something we offer. A fractional CMO creates the strategy, oversees execution, and owns the budget and metrics. Often, in small businesses, the CEO becomes the default CMO because they can’t afford a full-time one. They may not have marketing experience, but they’ve learned enough to get by. Maybe they have one marketer under them who they’re trying to manage. When we come in, we work alongside the CEO so they can stay in the CEO seat. We run the marketing department with them. We spend the first 30 to 45 days mapping out the business strategy, marketing strategy, and team strategy. Then we move into a long-term retainer where we’re really running the department, ensuring execution, and up-leveling any internal marketers who are doing the hands-on work.
Harley Green: Do you work with companies who already have in-house marketers? Do you help manage and guide them as that fractional CMO, or does it have to be your team doing the work?
Sara Nay: We provide a lot of flexibility because every team structure is different. In some cases, we’re the fractional CMO and we have a full execution team—so we’re acting as a fractional marketing department. In other cases, the client has one or two marketers already. We stay in the fractional CMO role and up-level those internal marketers by layering AI systems below them and plugging any gaps. Maybe they don’t have a technical developer—we can fill that need with project-based support. We’re flexible and adapt to the team’s needs.
Harley Green: Very nice. I imagine that’s a huge relief for a lot of those leaders who are wearing all those hats. Maybe you could share some examples of the positive changes those leaders have experienced working with you—when they no longer have to wear that CMO hat themselves.
Sara Nay: I’m really big on the idea of staying in your zone of genius. A lot of people start businesses not because they want to be marketers, but because they’re passionate about something else. Yet they end up becoming the marketer by default. When we come in, we ask strategic questions—what lights you up? What does success look like a year from now in your role? If we can get clarity on that, then we do everything we can to take marketing off their plate. They still need to be involved in key decisions, understand the metrics, and do quarterly planning. But we handle the daily grind so they can focus on what they do best.
One recent example: we worked with a home service company. The CEO had one marketer on staff, but it was a friend with little marketing experience—eager and growth-minded, which was great. They hired us to create the strategy and partner with the CEO while taking over managing the marketer. We helped upskill her and built an AI system underneath her to support content production—landing pages, ad copy, email campaigns, eBooks. She went from doing things manually without guidance to having a fractional CMO mentor above her and an AI content system below. Now she can grow her skills and work at a higher capacity.
Harley Green: Speaking of building those skills, it sounds like you’ve got a great program for helping people level up. How do you help teams adopt a growth mindset, especially when they’re navigating all the change and uncertainty with marketing, tech, and AI?
Sara Nay: I think growth mindset is something people usually either have or don’t. But you can create an environment that encourages it. That’s one of our company values, and we hire for it. We design our interviews to determine whether someone is growth-minded. That’s crucial in marketing—it changes so fast. Once they’re on the team, we support that mindset through things like our bi-weekly “Lead and Learn” meetings where we present new topics on AI and discuss how we can apply them. We also do a monthly book club, reading books on various topics and talking about implementation. So it starts with hiring the right people and then giving them space and tools to grow continuously.
Harley Green: Nice. What is one leadership habit that’s helped you scale with clarity and calm, and how might our listeners apply it to their own businesses?
Sara Nay: Communication. I started as an intern, so I’ve been in a lot of roles. One of the biggest lessons I’ve learned in leadership is the power of communication. When assigning a task, don’t just say, “I need this done.” Explain why it matters. How does it connect to other goals? How does it impact the team or client? Also, meet with your team regularly. Be available. Do thoughtful quarterly reviews. Really invest in those conversations. Listen. That kind of open, consistent communication is what’s made our company culture strong. We support each other, and that starts with how we communicate.
Harley Green: I love that. That’s something we’ve observed too. Leaders who have regular check-ins and clear communication get the best results. The ones who don’t delegate, just dump tasks with no context, tend to get frustrated with poor outcomes.
Sara Nay: Exactly. And there’s a saying: “Don’t throw good people at bad systems.” That’s why, in our onboarding process, we start with daily meetings no matter the role—even part-time contractors. We do daily check-ins during onboarding, then move to every other day, then twice a week, and eventually once a week. The more time and attention you give someone in their first 30 days, the better set up they are for long-term success.
Harley Green: That’s so smart. I’m a huge fan of a 30-60-90 day onboarding plan. It’s been a game-changer in our business. It helps leaders stay clear on what they’re handing off and helps team members know what’s coming. It’s super powerful.
Sara Nay: Absolutely.
Harley Green: As we wrap up, what’s one thing you’d like to share with leaders today—something they could take action on this week to make a big impact on their marketing?
Sara Nay: What we talked about earlier. AI is here. You should be using it in your business, no matter your industry—but don’t rush in. Take a step back. What are your four to six biggest business priorities for the next quarter? Hopefully, you’re doing quarterly planning. Look at your team, then decide which AI tools make sense. Don’t just sign up for everything. Breathe, analyze, and bring it in strategically.
Harley Green: Love it. Sara, if people want to continue the conversation or learn more about your business offerings, what’s the best way to connect?
Sara Nay: We have a page on our website: https://dtm.world/growth. There are a bunch of free resources there. I’m also very active on LinkedIn—just search for my name, Sara Nay.
Harley Green: Awesome. Thank you so much, Sara. And for those of you listening, if you got value from this episode, do one quick thing—hit like and subscribe so you don’t miss future episodes to help you scale smarter. And if you know a business owner who could use this information, share this episode with them. It might be exactly what they need. And if you’re listening on a podcast platform, leave us a quick rating. It helps us reach more leaders just like you. Thanks again, and we’ll see you in the next episode.
Surviving the Scale-Up: Leadership & Culture Lessons from Vidya Murali
Scaling a business isn’t just about growth metrics — it’s about surviving the emotional, cultural, and leadership chaos that comes with it. In a recent episode of Scale Smart Grow Fast, host Harley Green sat down with Vidya Murali, executive coach, former Amazon leader, and author of How to Survive in a Scale-Up Business, to unpack the real skills needed to thrive in high-growth environments.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Why Most Scale-Ups Struggle
According to Vidya, many startups fail to survive their scale-up phase because:
The business model isn’t truly proven, just funded.
Leadership hires are made based on brand names, not fit.
Founders resist adapting their own roles and team structures.
Toxic loyalty prevents necessary transitions.
Her insight? “What got you here won’t get you there. Scale-ups need a different kind of leadership mindset.”
The Emotional Skills That Matter
Vidya emphasizes that logic and strategy alone don’t cut it in the chaos of scale-ups. Leaders need:
Emotional resilience to stay grounded under pressure.
Self-awareness to let go of micromanagement.
Psychological safety to drive true performance and innovation.
Cultural clarity to scale values alongside business goals.
Creating Resilient, High-Performance Teams
Vidya urges leaders to:
Build teams with a healthy skills mix (not just fresh talent).
Regularly reevaluate roles based on evolving strategy.
Invest in mentoring and coaching, not just performance metrics.
Recognize burnout indicators early and reset expectations before it’s too late.
A strong culture doesn’t happen by accident — it’s shaped by intentional behavior, communication, and trust at the top.
Practical Leadership Habits
If you’re scaling fast, Vidya recommends two weekly rituals:
Set clear intentions on Monday. What kind of leader do you want to be this week?
Reflect on Friday. What worked? What didn’t? How did you show up for your team?
And always pause before reacting: “The space between a trigger and your response is where leadership lives.”
💡 Final Thought
Scale-ups aren’t for the faint of heart. But with the right mindset, emotional tools, and cultural focus, you can grow without burning out.
At Workergenix, we help founders and execs streamline operations, empower leadership teams, and build sustainable, high-performance cultures — without the burnout.
👉 Book a free discovery call to see how our executive support solutions can help you scale smarter.
Like what you read? Get weekly insights on scaling, efficiency, and profitability—straight to your inbox. Click here to subscribe.
Transcript
Harley Green: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast. What does it really take to thrive in a scale-up environment? In this episode, Vidya Murali, author of How to Survive in a Scale-Up Business and former senior leader at Amazon, Deliveroo and Skyscanner shares hard earned insights on the leadership mindset, cultural pitfalls and team dynamics that define high growth companies. With over two decades of experience scaling performance and resilience in tech, Vidya is going to offer practical advice for executives managing rapid change without losing their people or their sanity. Vidya, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?
Vidya Murali: Thanks Harley, thanks for the intro. I’m doing well.
Harley Green: Awesome Vidya. Can you share a little bit more about your background? You’ve got incredible professional background, these amazing businesses. You know, what has prompted you to write this book and share your experience?
Vidya Murali: Sure. So I grew up in India. I did my engineering and I joined the IT sector, which was very booming at that time. And then I took that as an opportunity to come to the UK as well. I did my MBA in Cambridge and my first job after MBA was Amazon. So Amazon, worked for more than six and a half years and I got really interested in the growing categories in Amazon. And at the end of six and a half years, I thought, okay, let me go join these scale-ups, these high growth young companies and the small fish, big pond, big fish, small pond type analogy. So I entered scale-ups almost blind. And when I entered the scale-ups and with my experience in Amazon, everything was new. No one prepared me for how chaotic it’s going to be. It was exciting. We had really big opportunities to lead the team, to grow, do something new. I enjoyed all of that.
However, it also came with some challenges because if you think about scale-ups, young founders, there’s a lot of tension around fundraising. There’s a need to prove value, the requirement for the role and teams change constantly. So I felt even with that Amazon experience and MBA and all that stuff, I was not prepared. No one prepared me for this. What I needed was emotional skills, like emotional superpower skills to navigate this environment because logic just didn’t cut it. It didn’t make a cut in the environment like Amazon, but not in the scale-ups. So I changed quite a few jobs. I learned a lot in this process. However, I was constantly questioning myself, what’s wrong with me? Why am I changing these jobs? What’s not working? And then during COVID, like everybody else, I had some time to reflect. And I realized like, okay, this is not a problem with me. It’s the nature of the environment.
And when I connected with other people who made this transition from mature corporates or well-organized businesses to scale-ups, I had similar stories. There’s a lot of war stories. There are people thriving, there are people struggling. So I thought how wonderful it would be to take all these experiences, very challenging experiences sometimes, and also like good experiences, and write a book that will help people to navigate this environment.
Whether they are grads looking for a dynamic space to work or working in corporate environment and are really tired of meeting after meetings and documents and stuff. They want to do something big, manage big teams. When they make this transition, I thought this will be an incredible resource, something that I wish I had before. So I wouldn’t be questioning myself rather working on developing the skills to navigate this environment. So yeah, that’s the background behind the book.
And I personally enjoy writing. I like the process of writing. It gets me into the state of flow. I love talking to individuals, hearing their stories. So all of this put together, I was able to reach out to a lot of veterans, experienced people, get their stories, convert them into practical insights, also use some frameworks. I am an experienced coach as well. So I brought coaching questions into the book. So it’s very much a practical toolkit that people can take and go, okay, now I’m the first 90 days or I’m interviewing, what should I be looking out for? What can I do? Or I’m facing this pattern. There is some toxic loyalty going on here. What can I do about it? So that’s kind of the idea.
Harley Green: Very nice. Now you’ve led some high growth teams when at these different companies you’ve been with. What would you say separates companies that survive scale-up from those that crumble?
Vidya Murali: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think obviously there’s a few things that come together, needs to come together. First of all, the business idea. When you move from a startup to a scale-up phase, the business idea shouldn’t just be an idea. It should be a model that’s worked out and that’s fully proven. Unfortunately, in many cases, it seemed to be an idea and somehow they convinced the funding, investors to invest into the business and that’s not quite it. So the proof of the business that it works, it can scale, needs to be established fully. And then it’s about the team really, leadership and team. The CEO and the founding teams are super useful and super important for the success of the business. Because of the small nature of the team, they are the culture. In big companies, yeah, you have all these cultures, you write these things and it is more organic. But in scale-ups, it is the CEO and founders that make the culture. So if they are able to create the environment of psychological safety, people can fail, people can move on, people can take risks and grow. And, you know, they are embedded within the business. There’s a good chance that the scale-ups will make it. On the other hand, you also have scale-ups that are kind of super hyped. The business model is not proved. They also hire people based on like brands and I come from Amazon myself, but just because I have an Amazon brand doesn’t make me the right fit for the roles and the scale-ups. Might be in some case, might not be in some case. So the founders and leadership need to be very honest about who are they looking for, at what level of maturity the org is, and they need to bring people that are right for that kind of stage. Also let go of people who are not serving them because somebody who’s done well in one to hundred might not be the right person from hundred to thousand or beyond, which is very hard. If you think about the founders, they have a lot of loyalty, which is a great thing because they had people who have been with them for quite a long time. However, including themselves, you need to question, does the business need my skills or it could be better off with somebody else who has the experience of scaling. So yeah, these are very tough conversations to be had, reflections to be had, something that I covered in my book as well, but it’s important when a business has its own identity, it’s becoming a bigger part of the employers and it’s actually making an impact to do justice to it and not be blockers for the business, even though you’re like, be the founder and CEO.
Harley Green: What are some tips you have or strategies that maybe you share in the book to help founders in these leadership teams when they might be at that point where it might be time to reevaluate the roles of some of those long-time loyal employees or even themselves? Is there opportunities to change the role or are there some cases where they just need to completely exit the company and find a new home?
Vidya Murali: Yeah, it’s a mix of both. I think the main thing is you have a strategy, a vision, and then you develop your org structure and skills working backwards from it. And that includes the founder and CEO and the top leadership till the junior most level as well. Every, ever so often every year, if it’s a scale-up or you’re doing it more frequently, the needs keep changing. So you need to think about, okay, this year, this is my goal. For example, your goal could be, I’m going to expand in new markets and I need some scalable systems to do that. And then you think about, okay, do I have the leadership in place in all these areas to drive this? Have these people got the experience and then work downwards, like top down from it. In terms of the question of, could we coach people and upskill them? Or should some people have to exit, I think it’s again a combination of both. At some level, some scenarios, people are coachable, especially if they’re early, like, they’re junior employees and in the mid-level employees, still possible to coach them, as long as they have role models in their team. So I have worked in businesses where everybody is like pretty new and then they don’t have these leadership and role models to coach them and grow them. But in some cases, people are just suited for that stage of the business. So again, I have the suitability test as well in my book, and I’m going to share that in some form. We need to understand what drives people, where do they thrive? So somebody who has a very high risk appetite and has alleged reaction to processes, they’re not going to thrive in bigger companies or even the scaling companies. Or somebody who has very low risk appetite and they like to analyze and think about things before they do, they’re not going to thrive in the early stage. We got to kind of be real about where people thrive in the environment and have that conversation with them. And rather than seeing this as a negative, it’s probably a good thing for this person because they’re no longer in the environment, they’re able to thrive. So give them an opportunity to also move on to somewhere they can do well.
Harley Green: You mentioned that it’s the responsibility of the leadership team to set the culture in these businesses. What would you say are some of the most common cultural setting challenges that leaders face as they shift from startup to that scale-up mode?
Vidya Murali: Yeah, there’s quite a few. With the scale-up comes a lot of pressure. So startup, if you think about it, this idea, they’re approving, they’re like a small team. They don’t really have to have meetings. They can talk to each other. When you go to a scale-up stage, it becomes like an organization. It’s like the Dunbar number, like 150 people. You don’t have to organize anything. You just can’t get to know. But beyond that, then you need to have some internal communication set up. You need to communicate in a way that motivates people and challenges them, but also balances the reality of the situation. So many founders and leaders are not ready for this because when they started the company, many of them started it because they didn’t want to be an employee. They didn’t want to follow all these rules. And then they go into the scale-up stage and now they have to create them. And that’s quite challenging.
It can be done with a great team in place. So I think one of the things that founders can do is not to think about it as their own sole ownership. They can also bring in people who can help them and complement them in this area. They can still be the visionary, but you have a good CEO who’s able to kind of communicate, for instance, and bring the people, the team together. That is probably the most important thing and challenge that founders face in terms of engaging the employees and the team and bring them together. But yeah, apart from that, obviously, as it scales, they need to make profit, the pressures and the rigor, execution rigor also becomes more important than in a startup stage.
The leaders might not have experience or skills. Again, this is where the hiring comes in place and bringing in people who have done that. And also creating them space when you bring in new people, you got to give them the liberty and freedom to operate. If they are operating under a restricted environment, as in they need to kind of listen to what the CEO says and not able to challenge CEO, and they have to maintain the team that’s been there for ages and don’t have the skills, you bring a fantastic person, put them in the middle, they can’t deliver. So those kinds of things are very common with all good intentions, you know, bring in new people, but make sure that’s set up for success and change.
Harley Green: Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about getting them set up for success and how can these leaders build these resilient cultures while still supporting the performance and not sacrificing their people? We’re in that stressful stage where you want to start getting profits. You want everyone at their peak performance, but you still want to have that resilient culture and it’s a fine balance. What are some tips and strategies that you might offer people to consider?
Vidya Murali: Yeah. So there is a very common myth that when you push people to drive performance, it kind of affects the culture in a negative way. You can only do it in a negative way, but it’s not the case. In many of the scale-ups I’ve worked, I saw a lot of busy work where people are constantly on Slack messages. People are constantly changing their decisions. Kind of like, you know, being micromanaged by C-level people.
And all of this is actually counter effective on performance. So really thinking about how to build a sustainable team and how to drive them for performance. Some of the common ways you can do that is ensure there’s a good mix of people. When you have a team, if you’re kind of bringing all of these people like, you know, very fresh and you don’t have experience there, there’s going to be a problem. These people are going to be waiting for instructions and that creates this micromanagement environment.
So every year, every six months, make sure your teams have a good mix of skills so they can learn from each other rather than having to have this kind of, for the leadership team and the rest of the company, that kind of having those layers is a good way for driving performance. Another kind of misunderstood thing is the psychological safety. It’s seen as something very soft, that’s not driving performance, seen as a cushion, but actually it drives performance. So Amy Edmondson, she’s done a lot of research on that in Google. And the one thing that differentiated the teams that drive performance versus others is the psychological safety. It simply means when things are going wrong, the team is open and safe to raise it as soon as possible without feeling that they’ll have some repercussions. That’s going to save a lot of time. So if that culture is encouraged where the failures are celebrated and somebody saying something that’s negative is encouraged rather than something pushed down, then that’s going to save a lot of time.
And also the micromanagement. So when you are a small company, the CEOs, the founders, CEOs, they’re all involved in all kinds of decisions. But as you scale, you need to step back and question, is my time well spent in this particular decision or is it well spent being involved in all the tactical things that I’m doing? And this is also actually creating a lot of pressure for the team. If the leaders are involved in every single decision, then they are probably going to be more prepared. They’re both going to be under the stress. So actually empowering the team to say, okay, you know, within the remits of your role, you can decide. And there are some things that need to come to my attention and like stop micromanaging and letting go. All of these can really help build more scalable culture rather than a culture that is based on control and busy work, which actually could be quite counter-effective.
Harley Green: You really nailed it when talking about executives being kind of micromanaging or being involved in decisions, they need to start questioning. And, you know, they oftentimes get to a point where they are drowning in these details when they start scaling up. And when does it make sense to start handing off some tasks from an executive’s plate to someone like an executive assistant, you know, coordinating reporting, admin work, calendar management, research, things like that, so they can really be freed up to be in that strategic mindset zone?
Vidya Murali: Yeah, as soon as possible, really. An executive’s time is not well spent doing admin. And there are various solutions — executive assistants, one of the solutions. We also have several AI tools now. Some roles like Chief of Staff would be quite useful as well if you’re looking at a little bit more higher driving strategic projects and connecting the dots, all of which can help.
The only caveat I would say is, again, creating the space for these people to do their job. And that requires the executives to let go and trust.
Harley Green: Right. A little bit earlier, we talked about how sometimes communication can actually slow things down. Like everyone’s responding to Slack messages all day. You know, as these companies are scaling, that communication can sometimes be something that breaks down, not just like in terms of not having communication, but maybe having too much communication or too much ease of communication. What are some practical methods to help maintain clarity and trust during that change regarding communication with the team?
Vidya Murali: Yeah. So, if one extreme is not communicating, people are going to assume things and people are going to have the feeling of uncertainty as well. It’s not good. On the other extreme, if everything needs to be communicated, that’s going to be really overwhelming. I worked in a company where everybody was constantly on Slack to the point that people had to do Slack work the whole day. And at the end of the day, they start doing their individual work.
That is an example of really, really extreme over-communication. I think it’s not the intent to communicate that overwhelms the team, it’s more the intent to control. So when the leadership team is very nervous about the team, they feel they have to be part of every single thing. They want to know everything. They want to be part of the decision-making. And that creates a cycle — they want to know, they ask questions. The team then goes, “I need to answer because my leader is asking this,” and they spend time on that. Then the team also prepares thinking, “I don’t have to think beyond what the leaders ask me for.”
So it goes into this whole busy work, micromanagement cycle. If you reverse it and go like, “I’m hiring this team that I can trust and I’m going to let them bring issues to me,” and have some controls in place — weekly business reviews, monthly reviews, KPIs — these give me both leading and lagging indicators, what Amazon calls inputs and outputs. I have those in place, but I’m going to trust my team to come up with these decisions and problems, and create the psychological safety and trust.
That requires a cultural change. That requires change management. If you’re stuck in that busyness wheel, it requires leaders to step back and really be honest about how their behavior is impacting the team and the performance and how that can be changed to become something more scalable.
Harley Green: Yeah. Well, speaking of maintaining the performance, when these businesses are scaling quickly, teams can often hit performance stress. What are some indicators that signal it’s time to reset the norms or reorient values?
Vidya Murali: Yeah, so I talk about burnout, for instance. It’s seen as unfortunately a badge of honor, but actually burnout is a very difficult experience. If you think about clinically someone affected by burnout, it takes a long time to reverse that. Anything to do with the brain takes a long time to reverse. So you really don’t want teams to go through that. You want to prevent those situations as soon as possible.
The indicators would be fatigue. If you think about having a team day or something, and the reaction is not excitement but “Ugh, another thing,” that’s a good indicator. It shows that they are not well. There’s no appetite for doing anything new, exciting, or change. So those reactions — which is why checking in is very important.
The practice of starting a meeting with a check-in, once a week asking your team how they’re feeling, how was their weekend — all these things which might sound trivial actually give a sense of how they are doing emotionally as well as in terms of well-being. There are various ways to check in. One method is “Rose, Bud, Thorn” — Rose is something positive, Bud is something they’re hoping for, and Thorn is something they are worried about. Ask them to share that. It brings all sorts of things they probably wouldn’t open up normally.
Creating those avenues is a great way to catch these early indicators. So once you sense that, what do you do about it? That’s where leaders need to step in and think about prioritization. Do you need the team to do everything, and do you need them to do it right now?
That’s one of the patterns — it’s a strength of founders and leaders to have a bias for action and want to do everything right away. That probably got them that far, but in a scaling business, everything cannot be done right now. That’s why you have to have priorities and accept that things take time to build properly. People have to schedule their work, and you need systems in place for milestones and delivery planning.
Harley Green: That’s so important. We are working with people, not machines. So there are those other aspects you have to be aware of to get the most out of them and make sure they’re happy. Speaking of that, we’ve kind of touched on this previously a little bit about bringing in people who maybe are going to help with coaching or mentoring at certain points in scaling. What role would you say the coaching and mentoring plays in helping scale-up leaders guide their teams through these difficult times?
Vidya Murali: I think it’s very important. I personally feel coaching is a gift, so is mentoring. Because when someone is stressed, as human beings, our logical part of the brain just switches off. We all go into this flight or fight mode. And that is not a good thinking machine. This is where using someone else to reflect really is powerful. So they’re able to bring this third-party perspective or even create the space for you and then you come up with your own answer. So coaching can be a powerful gift for everyone, including the leaders and the early employees.
Mentoring in particular, especially for the new joiners and people who want to move up but they haven’t done it before and then somebody else has done it before — that could be again a very powerful tool as well. And mentors not only help them with the skills, but they can also create opportunities for them because they are in the leadership team, they can be the sponsors as well. So I don’t think there’s any point in which you bring all these people. You just inherently hire people who have the opportunity and the willingness to coach and grow people and mentor people. So if you have a leadership team that’s willingly giving and bringing people up, that’s a gift. I think this Adam Grant’s new book, Give and Take, talks a lot about givers and bringing people into your team as well. So yeah, that is a great way to build scalable teams.
Harley Green: That’s great. Some people listening might have feared, “Okay, she’s going to say bring in the consultants,” right? But it doesn’t have to be that way. You can have your organic hires have these traits that foster that environment, it sounds like.
Vidya Murali: Yeah, you can bring the coaches as well. You obviously can use professional coaches, but you do need people embedded, understanding the context, to really help your employees.
Harley Green: Yeah, that’s perfect. Well, as we wrap up, for people who are feeling a little bit overwhelmed by growth in their business, what’s one actionable step they can take this week to strengthen their culture and regain control?
Vidya Murali: Yeah, so I would say the growth begins from inside. And if you’re a leader who’s overwhelmed and you’re like, “Oh my God, what’s going on in my business? Am I taking the right steps? What should I change?” I would suggest having an intention setting at the start of the week — saying, “This week, this is what I’m going to do — three things.”
And on a Friday afternoon, block your calendar and reflect, either with yourself or with a coach or with a mentor. How have you done? Not just from a performance point of view — what could you have done better from a behavioral point of view? What are the things that went well? What are the things you’re grateful for? And what are the things that you want to change?
So having that reflection practice really creates that clarity. And then you are a better person when you show up for your team, and the team sees that. And then it kind of creates this great culture. That would be my one tip. If I had to sneak in another tip, one extra tip would be —
Harley Green: Let’s do it. Yep.
Vidya Murali: Control your reactions, right? As leaders, you’re under pressure. There are lots of things — the board’s going to be putting pressure on you, your team, performance issues. But take that small pause between the trigger and your response and really intentionally communicate or respond. I’m not saying just always smile and be nice. Even if you’re going to communicate a bad message, if you’re going to communicate a challenging message, make sure you take some time to plan and communicate in a way that’s going to be productive. Because a lot of things when leaders react can actually have like 10x, 100x negative impact than anybody in a team reacting. So I would suggest these two things for the leaders.
Harley Green: That’s perfect. Thank you for sharing those tips with us. Now if people want to continue the conversation with you, Vidya, what’s the best way for them to connect?
Vidya Murali: So they can reach me. I do post a lot on LinkedIn, so they can follow me on LinkedIn and DM me or through my website — it’s vidyamurali.com. I have opportunities for scale-ups, networks, also for even grad universities to organize a career talk or a scale-up, thriving in scale-ups type of talk. They can reach me as well.
Harley Green: So as you’re listening, if you got value from this episode, do one quick thing. Hit like and subscribe so you don’t miss future strategies to help you scale smarter. And maybe you know a business owner or a colleague who could use this information. Share this episode with them. It could be exactly what they need right now. And if you’re listening on a podcast platform, leave us a quick star rating. It helps us reach more leaders just like you. And again, thanks for tuning in everybody. We will see you on the next one.
How to Build a Self-Managing Team That Scales With You
If you’re still the one making every key decision, giving every approval, or tracking every task—you’re not leading, you’re bottlenecking.
In our latest Executive Edge Live panel, Harley Green (CEO of Workergenix) brings together four powerhouse leaders to tackle a challenge nearly every business owner faces: how to build a self-managing team that thinks, acts, and leads like owners.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Why Self-Managing Teams Matter
A self-managing team isn’t just about delegation. It’s about creating a culture of trust, clarity, and ownership. These teams drive results without waiting for direction, making them essential for sustainable business growth.
Meet the Experts
This episode features real-world wisdom from:
Kristina Karcic-Ehret – Founder of Karcic Partners, helping startups grow with sustainable org design and operational clarity
Alex Otero – Director of HR, The Academy, focused on aligning HR systems with meaningful, measurable outcomes
Dr. Lori Marie Huertas – Assistant Director, MSU Denver, emphasizing emotional intelligence, team belonging, and authentic leadership
Joanna Hernandez – Founder of Elavanti HR, author of Present Leadership, and advocate for clear authority, accountability, and culture-driven HR systems
Key Insights From the Panel
1. Shift from Control to Clarity
Great teams don’t wait—they move. But they only move confidently when roles, goals, and boundaries are clear. Joanna stressed the power of decision rights embedded in job descriptions, which empower people to act without constant supervision.
2. Use the Right Frameworks
Alex recommended combining OKRs with systems like RACI or DACI to establish role clarity and project ownership. These tools support accountability without bottlenecking workflows.
3. Model Emotional Intelligence
Dr. Lori emphasized the value of psychological safety. When team members feel seen, heard, and valued, they naturally lead from within. Tools like personality assessments and empathy-building exercises deepen self-awareness and trust.
4. Design With Intent
Kristina highlighted the importance of org design. Without a well-structured foundation, you’ll always be reactive. Your team can’t self-manage if the strategy, structure, and expectations are fuzzy.
5. Failing Forward Builds Ownership
Failure is a feature, not a flaw. As Alex and Lori pointed out, innovation often comes from the courage to try, misstep, and learn. Teams need environments where failing forward is encouraged—not punished.
How to Know If You’re Disempowering Your Team
A few red flags:
You’re the only decision-maker
Your team is quiet in meetings
Team members seek constant approval
Tasks stall without your input
Joanna offered a simple fix: speak less, ask more. Create space for contribution. Encourage your team to think critically and act boldly.
Starting From Scratch? Here’s Where to Begin
If you’re a founder or early-stage executive, start with:
A clear, actionable strategy
Well-defined job roles and decision rights
A focus on culture as part of your foundation
Hiring for alignment and initiative, not just skills
Alex likened it to team sports: “Everyone on a winning team knows the goal, understands their role, and executes with purpose.”
As Harley shared, “Your next level of growth doesn’t come from working harder. It comes from empowering smarter.”
Whether you’re scaling your startup or redefining team culture in an established org, this episode is packed with practical frameworks and mindset shifts you can implement today.
🚀 Ready to delegate smarter and scale faster? Book your free discovery call with Workergenix and learn how our AI-powered executive support can help you build a self-managing team, so you can focus on what truly moves the needle.
Like what you read? Get weekly insights on scaling, efficiency, and profitability—straight to your inbox. Click here to subscribe.
Transcript
Harley Green All right. Welcome everyone to the Executive Edge Live panel. I’m Harley Green, the founder and CEO of Workergenix, where we help executives and leadership teams stay focused on high-impact activities by delegating the rest to highly skilled AI-leveraged ultimate executive assistants. Today’s conversation is going to tackle one of the biggest challenges in leadership: how to build a self-managing team that truly thinks and acts like owners. In your business, you’ve hired some great people, but you still seem to be the bottleneck for decisions, approvals, or accountability. Your business is just not scalable yet. So this session with these expert panelists is going to cover that. We’re going to talk about shifting from managing tasks to empowering ownership. Our incredible panelists today are going to share proven ways to build trust, accountability, and initiative inside your team so you can focus on strategy, growth, and innovation.
I’d like to welcome our panelists to the Executive Edge Live. We’re going to go around and give everyone a chance to introduce themselves, starting with Kristina.
Kristina Karcic-Ehret It’s great to be here. My name is Kristina and I am the founder of Karcic Partners. We’re your HR on demand. The sooner you bring us in, the better, because we help you grow and scale sustainably. Typically I work in the tech sector, making sure that founders aren’t just around for a phase or two, but they’re set up for long-term success.
Harley Green Awesome, thank you, Kristina. All right, Alex, how about you?
Alex Otero Hi everyone, I’m Alex Otero, the Director of Human Resources for the Academy, Community-Based Services. Just like Kristina, I’ve spent the majority of my career in the tech sector, but I pivoted to focus on helping local youth here in Southeastern Pennsylvania get where they need to be. Very excited to be here.
Harley Green All right, thank you, Alex. Next, we’ll jump over to Dr. Lori.
Dr. Lori Marie Huertas Hi, I’m the Assistant Director of Industry Partnerships at Metropolitan State University of Denver. I have a mentorship program where I connect students with industry professionals to gain essential skills. I’m also a professor of psychology, an advisor with different programs, and I collaborate with student veterans. Grateful to be here.
Harley Green Awesome. Thank you, Dr. Lori. And last but certainly not least, Joanna.
Joanna Hernandez Hi everyone, I’m glad to be here. I’m with Elavanti HR, the owner and founder. We’re a boutique HR firm. Our core competency is providing compliance and efficiency audits and assessments for companies and offering fractional HR leadership to support businesses in making the changes necessary to be sustainable and successful with purpose, systems, and a level of experience that gets you there quickly.
Harley Green Awesome, thank you, Joanna. I’m really excited for the conversation today. We’ve got a panel with rich knowledge in managing people and leadership. Let’s dive right in. This is going to be an open question to everyone on the panel. What does a self-managing team mean to you? And why is it so critical for scaling a business today?
Joanna Hernandez I’m happy to jump in there, Harley. I believe a self-managing team is one that operates with shared trust, clarity, and accountability. And what I mean by that is that every member knows the mission, the measures, the authority that they hold to make decisions. And I believe that really the true scalability doesn’t depend on how many people report up. It depends on how many people can think forward.
Kristina Karcic-Ehret Well said. I can jump in there too because I agree with everything you said. In addition, agility and innovation are absolutely non-negotiable in this as well. Therefore, self-managing teams are critical because they decentralize decision-making. They also provide the opportunity to push ownership closer to the work and the customer. So to me, the structure allows teams to respond faster to client needs, iterate on solutions in real time, and innovate most importantly without waiting for top-down direction.
Alex Otero I’d agree with that actually. I mean, both fantastic answers. The one thing that I would add to that is that, you know, self-managing teams in particular, they need to connect with their vision and the results of what they’re doing. All the self-managing teams that I’ve seen, and I’m sure we’ll talk about here in a little bit, they understand and connect their work and their team’s work with the results and the vision that they’re trying to attain from a company standpoint, which ultimately differentiates them from teams that have not connected with that.
Harley Green Lori, do want to give you a chance or you’re good on this one?
Dr. Lori Marie Huertas I don’t know, everybody said all the answers have been so good. I’m like, how do I add to that? I guess the only thing that I’ll add is that I just feel that when you have a self-managing team, everyone needs to be seen, heard, and valued. And if you do those three things, I think it just allows everything to work smoother. But I agree with all my colleagues.
Harley Green Excellent insights and just from my personal experience in business, it’s so true. Everything that’s been shared here, getting clear on your mission, vision and values is so helpful because it just makes sure everyone’s rowing in the same direction and it makes that decision-making process for everybody so much easier. Kristina, going back to you, you’ve helped leaders build organizations that run on trust and alignment. What would you say is the first mindset shift that a founder or executive needs to make to stop being that bottleneck we’ve talked about?
Kristina Karcic-Ehret To shift is important, but I do want to emphasize before you get there that you first have to make the investment in operational model and org design and then you can shift over. Without that clarity, you won’t be able to be proactive, you will be reactive. And then for me, in particular, you have to focus on shifting if necessary from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset. And the truth is most of us start with a fixed mindset because you’re constantly reacting to the chaos, right? But that’s why I say the organizational design and the operating model help alleviate that chaos and then you can jump right into ensuring that they have that growth mindset. Because if they don’t have that growth mindset, forget about it. Nothing else is going to stick, right?
Harley Green Alex, you’ve built HR structures through high growth phases. What are some systems and frameworks that help teams take ownership without losing accountability?
Alex Otero I love systems and frameworks questions. Kristina, we’re kind of in sync on a lot of what we’re saying, because I think that these two questions that came first, they can happen, but they can’t happen in a vacuum. And the reason I say that is when you ask about systems and frameworks, my mind immediately goes to OKRs. That’s the first one that most leaders, you know, most managers would think of. They’re the ones that they’re most familiar with. I have OKRs, I have a hand in creating them. And to a certain extent, they really annoy me sometimes. Everybody has mixed feelings about those OKRs. And then within those, you can break down into like the project management frameworks of like RACI and DACI and making sure that you’re assigning the right roles to the right people. But at the end of the day, none of that really ultimately matters if you can’t figure out what you’re working towards. And so specifically jumping back to OKRs, again, it’s a deceptively simple system for figuring out what your, of course, objectives and key results are. But it’s something that people tend to often throw off to the side. So spending a lot of time on figuring out what your goal as a company is, what your goals are aligning with your vision. And then as a manager or even as an individual contributor, what am I doing and can I connect that back to that vision through these frameworks is the key. You know, oftentimes people tend to just get bogged down in like hitting an OKR so that they can get a bonus. Somebody gets a little bit too bogged down and being part of say like the responsible party or the contributor in one of these frameworks that they forget what the overall purpose of it is. And so, you know, it’s as simple as having a candid conversation with a leadership group or an entire company, depending on its size, to figure out exactly what we’re working towards. Like what’s our common goal and how are we going to get there?
Harley Green There’s a lot of great insights there. Anybody else have anything to add? I know Alex covered a lot of ground there.
Dr. Lori Marie Huertas That’s a great question. I feel like lately, a lot of organizations that I’ve been seeking out my services as a consultant and to do trainings have really embraced different concepts like the five love languages of appreciation in the workplace and looking at the unique ways like I had said earlier, people feel valued and really in thinking of teams and the uniqueness, even when they’re self-managed, just embrace everyone’s unique personality. So like for example, I give sometimes the Myers-Briggs Assessment Personality Test and separate everyone in the group depending on their personality. And I tell them what their Star Wars character is based on their personality. And then we watch a clip from the movie and I’m like, great, how did your characters critically solve that problem? How did they use critical thinking skills to solve that problem? So like, for example, if Yoda solves it different than C3PO, but we need everybody. So we need processors on the team. And then I use superheroes with the Clifton strength assessment. And I’m like, I’m an executor. Like, I’m like, all right, let’s just do it. Right away I want to go and the DISC, I’m a D. I’m like, but I need people to say, Lori, calm down. We need to think about the whole situation. I know you want to do it yesterday, but we need to reflect on it. So just getting teams and organizations to understand that we need a little bit of everyone on the team. Can’t just be one or the other.
Harley Green Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. I especially love the Star Wars character reference. That really helps people kind of drive it home and relate, especially to maybe some of those other personalities that they’re not as familiar with or wouldn’t necessarily be able to define as well. But when they see it in their favorite Star Wars character, then it really becomes clear. It’s a great idea.
Kristina Karcic-Ehret And I’ll just add, oh, I’m so sorry, I just want to add that I love, love, love that. And to me, what I think is so beautiful about it is you’re really allowing people to embrace who they are and bring their authentic self, but also while recognizing that everyone should not be the same. You need the balance. At the end of the day, that’s true diversity, right? That’s really going to drive the innovation. So I absolutely love that. I had to just let you know.
Joanna Hernandez Yeah, I love that as well. And I just want to add that I think it also creates psychological safety and modeling empathy in action, which is so important because when your team feels seen and they feel valued and trusted, they’re naturally going to begin leading from within, which is that ownership mindset. And I think that’s where that true self-management begins. I love what you’re doing. That’s amazing.
Harley Green Well, Joanna, I think that segues perfectly into the next question that I had for you. You specialize in aligning HR systems and operational excellence. What are the practical steps that leaders can take to embed ownership into that team culture?
Joanna Hernandez It’s a great question. For me, embedding ownership starts with the principles of present leadership. And what that means is showing up whole and building the bridge of trust and stewarding the assignment with excellence. Leaders have to start with clarity. They have to define expectations. And one of my favorites is giving them decision rights. When people know what their authorities are, they understand their boundaries and they can act. And also when people see how their work ties to something meaningful, they begin to take ownership naturally. And the final step is modeling it. When leaders are consistent, when they’re present, when they’re transparent, they set a culture where accountability feels shared, not enforced.
Harley Green Could you talk a little bit more about the decision rights? I’m really curious about that. Are there some practical tips for kind of helping a leader define how to even get started there? Because there are so many areas where you could possibly define and it could be overwhelming. I’d love to hear your tips on that.
Joanna Hernandez Absolutely. Yes, and the simple answer is it starts with job descriptions. And the job descriptions we normally see KSAs or KSEs, which is knowledge, skills, experience, or knowledge, skills, and abilities. But if we could put inside that job description, here are the things that we expect you to do. And here are the authorities that we’re giving you. It could be as simple as you can spend up to $10,000 without taking anything in front of your project committee. If you feel like that $10,000 is going to achieve the result that comes from our strategic plan as an organization and you play a role in that and it falls within your accountability, you have the authority. For example, Kristina and I work together. In that job description, it would tell me that I have the authority to work with her in collaboration. And so that tells me I don’t have to go through a hierarchical process. I can go straight to Kristina with the problem that I have that aligns with her job description and we can solve that together. And the second part of that is a RACI, and Alex made mention of that earlier. That is a very effective tool and it allows people to collaborate safely and not feel like they’re stepping on each other’s toes, understanding where their responsibilities are and when they are simply someone who needs to be informed, as an example. But that is the most simple way that everyone can start today is just adding that one section of here are your responsibilities. Now here’s the authority that I’m offering you. And then that allows me as a leader to not bark instructions at you all day, but to rather manage the results and ensure that you’re utilizing and applying that authority in the way that’s going to achieve the outcomes that we want as an organization.
Harley Green I love that. It’s just one simple thing you can add. Go ahead, Alex.
Alex Otero Just to piggyback off of that real quick. Sorry, Harley.
Harley Green Yeah, no, go ahead.
Alex Otero So, okay, sorry. The one thing—and that was a fantastic description of how we can empower managers with decision rights that, let’s face it, aren’t going to make or break the business. And that’s the big issue, especially when you’re dealing with, say, founder CEOs who are used to having a lot of the authority and you’re taking something that they’ve brought up from inception. But a big, like, major sticking point for a lot of individuals to say, you know, new managers or people who maybe have been managers for a long time and haven’t had those decision rights that Joanna was talking about is understanding what the outcomes of accountability actually are. So oftentimes people will think, “Hey, if I mess up, well, then I lose my job.” You know, that’s the unfortunate, some of the unfortunate realities that we’re dealing with in this market. And that’s a different conversation for a different day, but you can create an environment as a leader where people can feel comfortable with working on something, making a decision, and potentially failing while knowing that you may look to somebody else to potentially help them to take on that project without them affecting their long-term outlook in that role. A lot of people love ownership. They’re really scared of accountability because they think because nobody’s taking the time to explain to them that accountability doesn’t always mean you fail and you’re no longer in that job. And that’s an unfortunate issue that is oftentimes not confronted in most businesses.
Dr. Lori Marie Huertas I’ll just add, just to piggyback on what Alex said. I love what you said about the failure part. There’s a book by John Maxwell called Failing Forward. And the main thing of the book is that in life, the most successful people are not necessarily the richest people, the smartest people, the most good-looking people. They’re the people that when they fail, they don’t focus on that. They move forward. And I think us talking about that can really help our teams feel more comfortable in embracing the fact that we’re not looking for perfection, we’re looking for direction.
Kristina Karcic-Ehret I love what you all have said. And just to quickly sum it up, at the end of the day, a lot of innovation comes from failure. So not giving that space, you’re losing out on creativity and innovation.
Harley Green And as your excellent point says, founders or leaders in business, you’re allowed to fail and you fail a lot. And it’s encouraged. It’s like the book Dr. Lori was referencing. So it’s excellent to think about that from a context of the employees. And if they want to think like leaders too, they need to have that space. So appreciate you pointing that out, Alex, as well.
Harley Green Next question for the group. Many executives struggle to let go of control. How can they build trust without losing visibility or quality? Anyone’s welcome to jump in.
Kristina Karcic-Ehret I think Joanna, you answered a lot of this in your prior question. I feel like you addressed it. And honestly, Alex, your follow-up was perfect. I think really when you’re talking about this, one of the really important things is, believe it or not, taking a step back and ensuring that you have the right IT and security infrastructure, which sometimes if you’re an early-stage startup, this goes as like, “Hey, you know what, we can deal with this later,” never mind the actual cost that that adds up to. But the reason why that becomes so critical in this situation is that you allow leaders to have the insight and the data to monitor things because it is critical when building to be able to stop when things don’t look right and go deep as an executive, as a leader. And you’re able to do that with the right infrastructure. How many of us have been part of an organization and trying to get that information is like, it’s painful. So we can’t expect leaders not to be able to go deep unless they have that. And secondly, I’ll just say going back, I’m going to sound like a broken record—that org design—and going exactly back to what Joanna says, if you don’t define the rules and responsibilities, don’t forget about it. Your org design goes out the window. But understanding who the founders are and building around it. And I’ll use the example like, oftentimes you have a founder that’s a visionary, then you need an integrator, right? And just thinking through that. But combined with everything you all three have said, I think collectively, that’s how you answer that.
Joanna Hernandez That’s so good.
Harley Green Well answered. And I agree, I think the previous answers have covered a lot of this as well. Next question I have for the group.
Joanna Hernandez I will add one more thing. I’m sorry, Harley. I just had a thought. Executives can also create visibility through dashboards and milestone reviews. And that’s one way that they can let go of that control. They don’t always need to be right next to the task, but they can have, I often call them toll gates, as often as they want. That could be once a week or once a month. Alex mentioned new managers, maybe they need to be checked in with more often. But there could be a rhythm to each project that is assigned. That’s another way to gain control—is to create an actual task where you state just like what it sounds like. You state what the task is, what that statement of work is, what their boundaries are, what their authorities, their budget, all of those things. But then you also build into that a check-in, a toll gate, so that you can sit with that employee and you feel then they have the power to course correct and or add value while still encouraging them to have the team member to have creativity and be innovative.
Alex Otero Let’s not forget that there’s also a—again, we can talk 10,000 feet, 100,000 feet—it doesn’t really matter. These are still people we’re talking about. And oftentimes, you know, there are not necessarily personal matters, but you know, everybody’s personality is different. Dr. Lori was saying about it earlier. So people are going to clash. People are going to think differently about how to approach a task. And sometimes it’s truly as easy, especially with executives or maybe senior-level managers who have been in a role for a long time, for them to go through an exercise of writing down why a specific thing is bothering them or why they feel they need to have a piece of information. If they can’t answer that in 10 seconds, it requires them to dig a little bit deeper and understand, “Hey, maybe I don’t need to be attached to this.” And then it could be as simple as what Joanna was saying with a dashboard. Dashboards fix a lot. They fix a lot because more often than not, people don’t want a dissertation on the information that they’re seeking. They just want a quick snapshot. But it’s incumbent upon them or whoever is enabling that behavior or trying to fix it to help them say, “Hey, why is this a roadblock for you? Why is it an issue? Why are you angry about it?” There’s a lot of why behind it.
Harley Green I really appreciate what you brought up there, Alex, with like the information access. I think that’s something a lot of times people don’t think about in the time to like cut things. And I experienced that just this week. There is an email group we use internally that’s related to marketing. And I was like, “You know what? I actually don’t ever take action on any of these emails. I don’t need to. I’ve got my team handling them. So I’ll just remove myself from that group.” And now my inbox is that much more clear so I can really stay focused on the things that I do need to focus on and respond to.
Harley Green So one other question I wanted to follow up because the next one was about communication. We’ve been talking about that. Do you all have any advice or specific frameworks that you particularly like for enabling that communication and feedback? We talked about having the tasks and setting outlines. Are there any frameworks that you swear by or recommend that people use to really enable that strong communication to have the self-managing team?
Dr. Lori Marie Huertas I guess I’ll say something real quick. I think trust is so important. I think visibility is really important as well. And I know that it’s a challenge at so many companies now because there’s people working remote, there’s people working in person, there’s the whole AI situation. And so I think we have to be intentional about continuing to develop those relationships with those people on our team so that that trust is there because without trust, it’s really hard to have communication. And I’ll use a quick example of myself. So my parents passed away. They were diagnosed with cancer. First, my mom and then my dad. And at the time when my mom was diagnosed, I was at another university and I was quickly moving up. My dad called me up and he was like, “Hey, what’s it gonna take for you to come home and help me with your mom?” This is before he got cancer. He’s like, “This is too much.” So I had to take FMLA. So I had to meet with HR people like my colleagues here. And really, because I trusted HR, I was able to be honest. And I was like, “What’s the best thing? Do I quit? Should I just quit? Should I do FMLA?” I ended up doing FMLA. I honestly did end up quitting because when my dad got diagnosed after my mom passed away, it was too much. But I just say that if it had not been for the trust that was developed, I would have probably not even told them. I would have just quit and not given a reason. And they would have had no idea what was going on.
Harley Green I think we see that a lot of times if employees are not thinking the same way as business leaders in most circumstances. So things that business leaders might take for granted, like, of course you come and talk to HR if you’ve got a problem. It’s not necessarily what employees think by default when they are in that stressful situation. And of course, the stress doesn’t help in making wise decisions either.
Kristina Karcic-Ehret So agree. I think the other piece to it as well is learning and development, right? I would love to say that everybody knows how to do these things, but truth is we don’t. Even if you think of active listening, which is a key part of this, right? For leaders, but other team members, we’re taught to listen to respond, listen to defend. We’re not taught to listen to actually listen. So I think just developing those key competencies, feedback and so forth. And then again, I know I always go back to that operating model, but what’s the expectation for communication? Who are my key stakeholders? Exactly what you three have said, so I don’t want to take credit for it. Who’s the owner? Who do I need to work with? Defining all of that enables communication and feedback, which is critical because self-managing teams cannot function without those two effectively. But it goes back to your leadership development, your overall development plan for your employees and providing that training.
Harley Green This next question is kind of going the opposite direction. I’m curious to hear if you all have examples of this that you can share and speak to. And the question is, how can leaders identify when they’re accidentally disempowering their team and what can they do to reverse that pattern?
Joanna Hernandez I absolutely love this question because I think that leaders disempower their teams without realizing it. And they do that by usually, first of all, really tight agendas, not creating enough space for people to share their thoughts, answer questions. Most leaders forget to go into inquiry mode when they’re inside a meeting and they’re just speaking, which we can do by recording a video or we can do through an email, right? But mostly from my perspective, I’ve been in HR for 28 years. The root cause is usually over-directing, over-correcting and withholding context. That’s been my experience. And you’ll see it the way you notice that is when teams become hesitant. We kind of talked about that a little bit. They get quiet. But the one that’s not so obvious, Alex, you were talking about newer managers. It took me a really long time to learn this, is they become dependent on you for every decision. I used to see that as a compliment, that my employees would come to me and ask me so many questions. I felt so useful, but I realized it was not exactly a good thing. To answer your question though, to reverse that, I think you need to create the space for contribution.
Joanna Hernandez Ask questions instead of giving answers. One trick that I use for that, you know, all of us on this panel are very experienced. We have a lot of answers. As I will limit myself to—I will try to limit myself to giving two answers. Everything else I will write down in my notebook and I will hold them for a different conversation so that I can create that space for what I just referred to—them asking questions and contributing.
Alex Otero Joanna, you said something in there that really just light bulbs started going off above my head. Context and lack of context is huge. And I think that, going back to pretty much what everybody said, Kristina, you’ve touched on it a few times just in terms of like how an organization is set up, how people feel like they can communicate. There needs to be somebody in that room who feels comfortable saying, “Is this what you want? Or is this what you think is best for the organization accomplishing its vision?” And I’ve been in rooms where that has been answered. And there is somebody who does that. I’ve been in rooms where there hasn’t. The ones where it hasn’t is where people feel disempowered. They feel disenfranchised because in that situation, they’re just doing work. They’re doing work because somebody wants something but has failed to provide them the context for what it is that they want. I myself, without specifics, have done tons of work on a specific project and walked into a room thinking that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. And somebody’s like, “That’s not what I want.” It’s like, “Well, you didn’t tell me what you wanted.” So which one is it? Do you want me to do the work that I think is best for us to accomplish our vision and mission? Or do you want something specific that you had in mind and I’ll just execute that? And those—it’s a vague real life example, but it’s specific to what Joanna said about context because so much context is lacking in a lot of what is handed from the top down.
Kristina Karcic-Ehret I absolutely love that. And actually, I think also the thing I would like to add—I’m going to actually steal this from Alex and go back to you. The thing you said before, which I think is critical here too, is a sense of accountability, right? And ensuring that self-managed teams—those are brought into your values and most importantly, your leadership values, right? Your leadership tenants, your leadership principles, because that then forms your performance management and it then becomes accountability. But like everything, it’s dependent on other things. So again, I go back to your leadership development, making sure that your people and your leaders know what to expect from them and then building that in, as well as honestly, even your hiring practices. It goes beyond that, right? Making sure that you’re hiring the right people that are going to be able to thrive in this environment and so forth. So I love that you brought it back to accountability earlier, and I would say that here too, to reinforce that.
Joanna Hernandez Also, Harley, I’m sorry, I just had a thought as Kristina was speaking and Alex—that people need those moments to really absorb, those moments of context to absorb and then translate ideas into action. And Alex said that so perfectly because when you make room for that, that’s when you transform partnership into an ownership mindset.
Harley Green That’s so powerful. Now stepping into early-stage companies, maybe just a few employees, what is the best place for them to start building that culture of ownership?
Kristina Karcic-Ehret I can jump in. I’ll say right from the start, right? How often when you build organizations, culture is secondary. Culture is not secondary. It can mean very, very intentionally designed. But first and foremost, you have to have a clear and actionable strategy. You can’t build without that, right? And then being able to build, like we were talking about, everybody’s mentioned those pieces about whether it’s designing for the org, whether it’s designing your operating model—all these pieces come into play. But it’s never too early. But remember, culture does not sit by itself. It works collectively with other pieces of your structure and your foundation. And if the thought is earlier, then you can really embed it into your DNA and build that. But I think that’s critical for self-managing teams because that’s setting them up for success.
Alex Otero You’ll hear a lot of leaders pretty much everywhere, at least in my career—and I’ve done this a little bit short of 20 years—I’ve always had somebody say, “We’re recruiting for this role. I really love the idea of potentially bringing in somebody who has played division one sports or something like that.” Again, with no context, Joanna, so they kind of just say it. They don’t really say why. But the reason that individuals look for people who play organized sports often is because they understand singular focus and what their participation means to the success of a team. And so that is super paramount when it comes to smaller teams, because if you were to walk into a room right now of a startup with 10 people, you should be able to ask each of those 10 people, including the leaders, “What is your purpose here and what’s our vision?” And if they can’t answer that, then you’re having trouble building that culture of accountability. If you walked into any sports organization right now, any sports team and asked them the same question, they’d say, “We need to do what I need to do. What helps my team win this next game or win this championship?” Companies, individuals, and companies that have that same mindset are the ones that are the most successful.
Harley Green It’s an excellent observation. So does anybody have anything else to add on that before I go to the final lightning round question?
Harley Green All right, guys. So this one—after you answer, I’d love to have everyone give the opportunity to share briefly the best way for the audience to connect with you after the show, whether it’s connecting with you online or if you’ve got an item of value you want to share. Please feel free to share that after you answer this quick question: For everyone out there who’s in business leadership, what is your number one piece of advice for them to take action now to help their team think like owners and not task doers? And Kristina, we’ll start with you.
Kristina Karcic-Ehret To answer that, I think if you want a team that thinks like owners, start by hiring an HR leader who thinks like a business partner to help you develop, to create that.
Harley Green And how can people connect with you, Kristina?
Kristina Karcic-Ehret I apologize. Please connect with me on LinkedIn. Thankfully, I am the only Kristina Karcic. Never mind when you add my secondary last name, Ehret. So I’m easy to find.
Harley Green Awesome. Thank you. All right. Up to you, Alex.
Alex Otero So I think that—yeah, I’m definitely not going to say hire a good HR leader. It’s just self-aggrandizing. But I will say that—have a conversation with all of your leaders that you want to empower and ask them straight up, “Am I giving you enough leeway? Am I putting you in the position that you feel like you are owning your role, that you feel like you understand the accountability of your role?” And if either of those answers is no, immediately ask, “How can I do that for you?” Or “Let’s start planning that. Let’s start mapping it out. Heck, if we need to get a whiteboard session for the next hour, let’s figure out what we can do together to understand what our purpose here actually is.” And yeah, the best way to find me is definitely on LinkedIn. Yeah, that’s probably the best way.
Harley Green All right. Awesome. Thank you, Alex. And Joanna.
Joanna Hernandez I would say trust before task and just show up whole, show up present. It’s so important to lead with presence before policy and clarity before control and trust before task. Because when you show up whole, your team learns how to lead from within and they have that ownership mindset. How you would connect with me—obviously I am on LinkedIn. However, connect with me on my website, which is www.elavantihr.com. Because there I do have access to a book that I just published called Present Leadership, which has a lot of content that we’ve reviewed today. And I also have a podcast that you can connect to through that website. So that has all my contact information and a link to my LinkedIn if you’d like to connect with me there as well. And thank you for that opportunity.
Harley Green Thank you, Joanna. All right, Dr. Lori.
Dr. Lori Marie Huertas So I think that meetings should be held on Tuesdays because of Taco Tuesdays. I think when you have food at meetings, people participate more. But on a serious note, even though that’s kind of true and I’m a foodie, I will say that—and I love everyone on this call. Thank you so much for inviting me. I feel like I’ve learned so much from everyone. I think being authentic is really important and just giving people room to tell their story. Because I think as people tell their stories, you get to know if they understand the company mission, like Alex was talking about, where they are. So yeah, letting people be authentic and telling their story and modeling that as a leader, I think is really important. And I could be reached on LinkedIn.
Harley Green All right. Thank you all to our amazing panelists for such powerful insights and practical strategies today. I know I’ve taken many notes and have some great things I’m going to start implementing from our conversations today. And to everyone joining us, thank you for investing your time today. Remember, your next level of growth doesn’t come from working harder. It comes from empowering smarter. And if you’re ready to free yourself from being the bottleneck and build the kind of strategic support systems that scales with you, I’d love to invite our audience to our free masterclass called Delegate to Dominate. You can watch it and unlock a special bonus offer just for our panel viewers at workergenix.com/bonus-masterclass. And we will see you all on the next Executive Edge Live. Thank you everyone.
Succession Isn’t Just Strategy—It’s Human: How Visionary Leaders Can Transition with Intention
For many founders, succession planning feels like a legal checklist or a financial transaction. But as Andrea Carpenter, President of The Transition Strategists, explains in our latest episode of the Scale Smart ,Grow Fast podcast—it’s so much more than that. Succession is personal. It’s emotional. It’s about legacy, identity, and preparing the next generation to lead.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Why Succession Planning Starts with Self-Awareness
Andrea, a next-gen successor herself, is walking the same roadmap she guides her clients through. Her transition into leadership within Elizabeth Ledoux’s company shows firsthand how complex and meaningful internal business transitions can be. From leadership development to defining fair equity deals, the process is never as straightforward—or as quick—as many founders expect.
“The biggest surprise? Timelines. What you think will take a year can easily stretch into three or more,” Andrea shares.
Mindset Shifts Every Founder Needs
Many visionary leaders delay succession planning due to fear: fear of letting go, fear of family conflict, or simply not knowing what comes next. Andrea emphasizes that successful transitions require a clear vision of your “next adventure” as much as a plan for who will lead the business.
Common mindset shifts include:
Redefining your role as a mentor or advisor, not just the CEO
Decoupling your identity from your company
Designing a legacy that supports both the business and your family
Don’t Wait Until It’s Urgent
Andrea recommends starting the process 3–5 years before your desired exit. Whether it’s an internal succession, employee buyout, or third-party sale, you need time to develop leaders, align your values, and structure a deal that’s fair, strategic, and tax-efficient.
“The sooner you start, the more options you’ll have—and the more intentional your legacy can be.”
Tools for Intentional Transition
Andrea shares two powerful tools they use at The Transition Strategists:
The IMAP Assessment – to understand individual wiring and communication styles
The Objectives Matrix – to clarify what’s most important to each stakeholder in the transition
These tools help families and leadership teams move from conflict and assumption to alignment and trust.
💡 Key Takeaway: Succession Is About People, Not Just Process
If you want to pass your business on without breaking what you built, the time to start planning is now. Don’t wait until it’s urgent—start having the right conversations today.
Workergenix helps entrepreneurs escape the day-to-day grind with AI-powered executive assistants trained to think, act, and lead like true business partners.
Like what you read? Get weekly insights on scaling, efficiency, and profitability—straight to your inbox. Click here to subscribe.
Transcript
Harley Green: All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast. Succession isn’t just a legal or financial process. It’s a human one. In this episode, Andrea Carpenter, president of The Transition Strategists and host of Your Next Gen Friend, shares how visionary leaders can prepare for transition with intention. Drawing from her own journey as a next-gen successor, Andrea offers practical and heartfelt insights for business owners who want to plan for the future, nurture rising leaders, and build a legacy that outlives their calendar.
Andrea Carpenter: I’m good, thanks for having me, Harley.
Harley Green: Awesome. Andrea, how did you get into this line of business? It’s quite unique.
Andrea Carpenter: It is quite unique. When I left my full-time W2, I thought I was going to grow and start my own business. Long story short, there was this period of figuring out who I wanted to serve. I’m second generation in my own family. My dad built and scaled a very successful business, which he ultimately exited. When your family has some type of wealth event, for some next-gens it happens early in their life or they’re born into it, their family already has the money. In some families it happens later. Suddenly there’s this shifting of identity and questions around, “What am I doing? What is my relationship with money?” For many next-gens, there’s a tipping point where they start to think about these things.
I thought it would be great if I could serve next-gens in some capacity. I met Elizabeth Ledoux, who’s now my business partner. She has always focused on internal transitions—how to help families stay together when parents are thinking about passing the business to their kids. It’s really about the whole person, the human side of families and business. A lot of people think it’s an either-or choice: my business stays together or my family does. We’ve proven that’s not true. The process we use also helps people decide what their options are. So people start thinking about what’s important to them and what the right path looks like. I began to think about all this in the context of successors and next-gens in families making a decision to come into a business they didn’t start. It’s a very different journey.
If you’re the founder, your identity is tied to the business. But for someone coming in as a second generation, it’s different. That fit really well with my experience and my desire to help next-gens. It’s turned a bit meta now because I’m a successor in Elizabeth’s business. We’re on a five to seven-year roadmap where she will transition and sell her equity to me. We get to decide that together, now that we’re on the roadmap together.
Harley Green: I love it. You’ve lived it, experienced it, and are continuing to experience it. What has surprised you the most about transitioning from the outside in?
Andrea Carpenter: Timelines are crazy. You look at a situation and think, “This will take a year and a half, maybe two.” You imagine you’ll be ready to take over, be the greatest leader in the world—but that’s not how it works. Even selling a business to the market can take two to three years. When it’s an internal transition, the leadership development required, the understanding of the business, the relationships with vendors—there’s so much a founder does that takes time to transfer.
From when Elizabeth invited me to be a potential successor, it took about a year and a half before our first legal documents were done. Deciding the purchase price—what I can afford, what she’s willing to accept, what’s fair—takes time. Our process focuses on what’s important to the people involved. Elizabeth thought she had 10 years left before retirement. Her husband said, “I’m retiring in six or seven—can we retire together?” It’s not just your decision. Other people’s lives are involved.
In my case, I was 30 and my husband and I were thinking about starting a family. I got pregnant in the middle of the process. Life happens. When you’ve thought about succession early and know your direction, your ability to pivot and respond is much greater. You’re aligned and can have good conversations when things change.
Harley Green: Many founders might struggle with letting go. Are there certain mindset shifts you believe are essential?
Andrea Carpenter: We use the word “metamorphosis.” We talk about six areas: role shifts, power dynamics, and legacy. Maybe you transfer bookkeeping but keep business development. That’s okay. It’s not all-or-nothing. The legacy piece is big—thinking, “My business is my legacy,” then realizing, “Now my legacy is letting it live on.”
Every owner needs an idea of their next adventure. The successor also has a next adventure—the business. My next adventure is hopefully owning The Transition Strategists. Right now, I’m a partial owner. Elizabeth’s next adventure will be stepping out—maybe still doing something she enjoys. Some people want to be with family, travel, golf, or get involved in philanthropy or mentoring. If you don’t have something to move toward, you’ll never fully step out of the way. That’s true even if you’re selling. We’ve met so many people who sell and are unhappy—not because of the deal, but because they didn’t plan what comes next.
Harley Green: How can leaders start thinking about succession before it becomes urgent? And what mistakes do you see when they don’t?
Andrea Carpenter: Give yourself as much time as possible. I’m a futurist by nature. If I don’t see the big picture, I struggle with making aligned decisions. The furthest out we’ve seen someone plan is 10–15 years, especially in family business. One client’s son is joining the Marines—he may be ready in 10 years, but the founder wants to be out in five. That disconnect creates challenges.
We started asking: does he need to hire a management team to bridge the gap? Are there key hires that can maintain the business in the meantime? When family’s involved, it’s never too early to start. Even employee buyouts require deep relationship and leadership development. If you’re selling, the market changes. Start 3–5 years before approaching an investment bank or broker. Know what your business needs to be worth. What’s your number? Will the sale give you the income you need, or will you need to keep working?
A lot of people avoid this due to fear—fear that their family will push them out, that conflict will arise, that they don’t know what to do next. That fear leads to waiting. And waiting shortens your timeline and limits your options.
Harley Green: What about when founders have multiple children involved? How do you navigate the fairness factor?
Andrea Carpenter: As a second-gen myself, the best thing my parents did was keep communication open. Families that fall apart during transition usually weren’t talking to begin with. Starting a dialogue, even without having the answers, is powerful.
You might have three kids—one wants in, one doesn’t, one wants equity. Maybe they’re friends, maybe they’re not. We’ve seen families where one child works in the business, and the siblings don’t think it’s fair. If no one understands the value of the business or what it means to sell, resentment builds. A key question: is your business a family asset, or is it a business asset that family members can choose to buy into? That distinction determines how we write the transition plan.
Harley Green: Can you share a success story from a family that got it right?
Andrea Carpenter: Yes. One family came in with tension—arms crossed, unsure, not believing the process would help. Parents assumed kids wouldn’t show up. Kids assumed parents wouldn’t change.
We started with the IMAP assessment. It shows how people are wired and how they prefer to be influenced. Suddenly, they saw each other clearly—why someone hesitates, why someone pushes. They started using language like, “Your persuader is a little strong” or “Your adaptability is clashing with my planning.” It opened up a whole new way to talk.
Then we used the Objectives Matrix—each person shares what’s most important to them in the transition. The emotional shift was huge. One family passed the tissue box around the table. For many, it was the first time they’d really talked about what matters to them.
That’s when the real success happens—when families stop defending and start designing. “I want to start a nonprofit.” “I want to grow the business.” Now they can create a plan that honors both.
Harley Green: That’s incredible. For leaders ready to define their next adventure, where should they begin?
Andrea Carpenter: Start with the Objectives Matrix. It helps you think about your goals—what you want to continue doing, what’s short-term, long-term. What’s important to your spouse? Your kids? Your employees?
You can get it at transitionstrategists.com/workergenix. It’s a great tool to begin visualizing a future beyond the business. If what you want to keep doing is working—that’s fine! But this tool will show you when your work no longer supports your life goals. When that happens, it’s time to design a plan that aligns both.
Harley Green: So many great insights and takeaways, Andrea. Thank you for sharing. Where can people connect with you?
Harley Green: Amazing. Thanks again, Andrea. If you found value in this episode, be sure to like, subscribe, and share it with a fellow business owner who needs to hear it. See you on the next one!
Why Sales Is Misunderstood—and How to Turn It into Your Competitive Advantage
Sales isn’t a dirty word—it’s your business’s lifeline. In a recent episode of the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast, Harley Green sat down with Beth McClary-Wolford, a Fractional Sales Leader and founder of Superpower Strategies, who debunked common sales myths and offered real-world strategies to transform your sales team into confident, high-performing professionals.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
From Fortune 500 to Small Biz Impact
Beth’s background spans 30+ years in Fortune 100 and 500 companies. But her passion lies in helping small and mid-sized businesses—where she says the sales needle can have the biggest impact on local economies.
Everyone Sells—Even If They Deny It
One of Beth’s core messages? Everyone is in sales, whether they realize it or not. Yet, the profession has suffered from a decline in authenticity and professionalism, largely due to over-reliance on digital, transactional methods. Sales, at its core, is about solving problems and building trust.
“People don’t buy on price—they buy on emotion and value,” Beth emphasized.
Shift the Focus: It’s Not What You Do—It’s What You Do FOR Them
Sales teams often struggle to communicate value. Beth encourages leaders to reframe conversations around the client’s “so what.” What’s in it for them? That’s where the magic happens.
Know Your Metrics, Know Your Impact
Beth breaks down why understanding your lead conversion metrics—and nurturing those leads over time—is crucial. She recommends at least 18 meaningful touchpoints to stay top-of-mind. This isn’t about spamming; it’s about strategic, value-based persistence.
When Should Founders Let Go of Sales?
Beth advises founders to stay involved in sales early on because it’s the fastest way to validate your value prop. But eventually, a structured process, accountability, and consistent coaching are essential if you want to scale.
The First Step You Can Take This Week
Ask your best customers: “Why do you buy from us?” Use those emotional insights to clearly define what makes your business different. It’s the foundation for building a powerful and authentic sales strategy.
Key Takeaways:
Sales is about helping, not convincing.
Emotional value drives buying decisions—not price.
Lead nurturing is a long game—consistency builds familiarity and trust.
Founders must eventually delegate sales—but only after installing the right process.
Your unique value should be clearly communicated across your entire team.
Want to grow a confident sales team? Connect with Beth McClary-Wolford at superpowerstrategies.com or email her at .
Workergenix helps busy executives delegate smarter and scale faster with highly skilled, AI-leveraged executive assistants.
Like what you read? Get weekly insights on scaling, efficiency, and profitability—straight to your inbox. Click here to subscribe.
Transcript
Harley Green: All right, we’ll get started here. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast. Now everyone sells whether they admit it or not. In this episode, Beth McCleary-Wolford, Fractional Sales Leader and Sales Team Strategist, breaks down why sales has become a misunderstood word and how to reframe it as a competitive advantage. With 30 plus years of experience building high-performing teams and revamping sales processes, Beth’s going to share how to transform hesitant teams into confident sellers through assessment, coaching, and real-world connection. Beth, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?
Beth McClary-Wolford: It’s a real pleasure to be here. And it’s a beautiful sunny and hot day.
Harley Green: Nice, very nice. Well, Beth, maybe you can give a little background about your story. What brought you to doing what you are doing today, helping people with sales?
Beth McClary-Wolford: So I’ve spent most of my career working for Fortune 100, Fortune 500 companies. And it’s great, and I got great experience and a lot of wonderful training. But the problem is that most businesses in the United States and in Chattanooga are small to medium-sized businesses, and they are the ones that need the most help. And that is where I realized I could make the most impact. And so three and a half years ago, I started Superpower Strategies to bring my experience and all the wonderful things that I’ve learned in my 30 plus years to that marketplace. Moving that sales needle for those small to medium-sized businesses is a significant impact and it impacts the economy and it gives us hope for the future.
Harley Green: Yeah, that’s powerful. You’re helping your neighbors and the community really improve their businesses by bringing their service to people that need it. It’s a win-win-win situation. I love that. Now you often say that everyone sells, but many don’t want to admit it. Why do you think that sales still has such a negative stigma and how do you help people reframe that?
Beth McClary-Wolford: Well, one reason why sales has such a bad reputation is that the level of sales professionalism has been on the decline. We’ve become a very transactional society, or as salespeople, we want it to be transactional. That’s been stimulated by digital marketing, and it has its place and I love it. I would not give away all of my experiences and the campaigns that we have. But in that transactional marketplace, a salesperson’s impact has diminished. We’ve just gotten lazy and we’ve forgotten that sales is about providing a solution to a problem and addressing a client challenge. And if we’re just taking orders, we’re not helping them understand how what you’re doing can really make an impact on what they’re trying to accomplish. I wish that we could change the way that people define sales, because the definition is helping people do what they need and what they want and addressing challenges and providing solutions. It’s not about manipulation or coercion or tricking. It’s about listening and understanding and then creating solutions that identify and help. One of the things that I’ve realized in the marketplace is that the sales bar of expectations of salespeople is really, really low. If I can help raise that bar just a little bit for Chattanooga, it will be significant. That’s my goal. I want people, when they meet someone and they’re a salesperson, to enjoy the experience and realize that they’re better off today than they were before interacting with that company or that salesperson. I want them to think, they must’ve worked with Beth because the bar is here.
Harley Green: Yeah, so what are some tips that you might share for people that could start implementing to improve that experience as a salesperson that their clients or potential clients have when they do meet them?
Beth McClary-Wolford: We need to be very conscious of the “so what.” I always ask people when they go and talk with a potential client, what’s in it for them? It’s not about what you do, it’s what you do does for the person that you’re talking to. So in your case with WorkerGenix, you provide virtual assistance. You help people focus themselves so they can go out in the world and do what they do best, which is meet and greet and talk with people. You take away the administrative stuff that has to be done, but it doesn’t have to be done by me. What you do for me is save me time and allow me to invest my energy where it’s the most valuable, right? Keeping it very customer-centric is key because people buy on emotion. They don’t buy on price. And even if someone’s price is higher, there was a reason why it was higher. What are you doing? What does that extra money do for the client? You’re just not communicating it. Or you really don’t understand what their motivation is for making the decision. Don’t spray and pray. Ask a lot of questions. Ask people, what is it you want to accomplish this year? We’re halfway through. What steps are you taking today so that I can see if I can help you? Being very customer-centric and trying to walk in their shoes is probably one of the most important things a person can do. When you start talking about emotions, people get uncomfortable. But you do have to care. And no matter how technical or intangible your product or service is, it does something for that client. It can change everything about what they’re doing.
Knowing your numbers and understanding how many calls it takes to get an appointment can be depressing, but it’s important. When things get better, we can celebrate and know that our efforts and preparation helped us along. A lot of people don’t understand the value of a lead. Even if you don’t close the deal today, what are you doing to stay in front of that person? You need to continuously communicate your value so that when things change, they come directly to you.
Harley Green: That’s a really good point about that follow-up. Do you have any guidelines or rules of thumb to help sales teams and leaders calculate that investment they should make in follow-up?
Beth McClary-Wolford: It comes down to continuous touching. To get somebody’s attention, you’ve got to touch them at least 18 times. I’ve read studies that suggest it can go up as high as 50 to 100 touches. We’re overstimulated—emails, texts, everything. So in the beginning of a client relationship, I always say it takes 18 touches. People think that means picking up the phone 18 times, but that’s not what I’m saying. We’ve got to figure out the customer journey—how to help them find you and become warmer to you. That could be as simple as a business card. People may not remember why they know your company, but it’s because they’ve seen your logo around. Business cards, social media—even if you’re not getting likes or comments, you’re still visible. Build a strong digital presence and provide value, tips, and insights. Familiarity builds trust.
Being consistent and persistent on social media helps. Provide education and value. Most people don’t know what you do. You have to share it. One of my favorite things is when I call someone and say, “This is Beth McClary-Wolford with Superpower Strategies,” and there’s a long pause—they’re trying to figure out if they know me. That means I’ve done my job. It’s not about who you know, it’s who knows you. The more people you meet, the better off you are. Everyone has a compelling story. Sometimes they forget why they started their business. And sometimes that’s all it takes—me sitting down and asking, why did you do this?
Harley Green: I want to switch gears a little bit. As you’re assessing a company’s sales structure or processes, what are some of the first signs that something’s broken or just plain missing?
Beth McClary-Wolford: In the assessment process, I meet with anyone who interfaces with clients. Some companies don’t even have salespeople—just people who interact with clients. I ask the same eight questions of everyone. The number one issue is that people do not understand the value they bring to the marketplace, and they can’t communicate it. I ask, what makes you different? Who’s your competitor and what makes you different? Everyone struggles. I thought it was isolated to Chattanooga, but it’s a common issue across the board. Founders may know what makes them different, but they don’t communicate it. Everyone on the team should understand your core values and what makes you unique. If no one else is talking about it, you can claim it.
There’s also the problem that after COVID, a lot of salespeople quit working. They were able to hide. In assessments, you can tell who’s working and who’s not. We all have those months or even years when we’re burnt out. The problem is not admitting it and hoping it will go away. But there are no shortcuts in sales. It’s hard work. If a salesperson is creative enough to get you on the phone and asks for 15 minutes, give it to them. That 15 minutes could bring value. People don’t want to be sold, but they love to buy. My process isn’t about selling—it’s about learning how to help.
Harley Green: Is there a point at which it makes sense for the founder or leadership team to step back from frontline sales? What does that look like?
Beth McClary-Wolford: Yes, absolutely. The number one skill a founder needs is sales. There’s a great Forbes article on this. People may have great products, but if they don’t know how to sell them, nothing happens. Often, the sales function is the first thing that gets pushed aside. Salespeople are handed a stack of cards and told to go sell, but there’s no infrastructure—no process, no technology, no coaching, no accountability. Teams are no different than children. They need expectations clearly communicated. Use the process. Be successful. Make money. Great sales teams have a process they follow without fail. They’re always prospecting. It’s not marketing’s job to provide leads—it’s the salesperson’s job to find prospects and share the story. I’m proud to be a sales professional. I still have customer relationships from years ago because I made a difference. It’s not about money. That’s just a reward. What really motivates a salesperson is making a connection and helping someone achieve something.
Harley Green: You’ve helped people implement and revamp their sales processes. What’s one process most companies either overlook or underestimate?
Beth McClary-Wolford: Lead nurturing. After your 18 touches, and once you get a meeting, you go out and do discovery. Then you come back to build a proposal. But before that, send a follow-up that says, “Here’s what I learned from our meeting.” That step alone raises the bar. It shows you listened. Use that information in your proposal. Say, “We talked, you shared X, Y, and Z. Is that still true?” Sometimes they add more. Always bring it back to their goals. Don’t assume they remember why you’re there. Remind them. You’re one of many vendors they’ve talked to. Remind them of your value. Sometimes people say, “That’s going to take a lot of creativity.” But if you have the right ideal customer profile, you can figure out how your solution fits. There’s always a return on that investment.
Harley Green: If someone listening wants to strengthen their sales team, what’s one simple but powerful move they can make this week?
Beth McClary-Wolford: Define your value. Who are you? What do you do? Why do people come to you? What makes you different? If you don’t know, call your best customers and ask them. Some people say, “I’m not the premier provider.” But you never will be unless you start saying it and acting like it. Ask yourself: why do people come to us? Fill in the blanks: because they’re overwhelmed with ____, frustrated with ____, looking for a partner who ____. And no, saving money isn’t one of those reasons.
Harley Green: Beth, if people want to continue the conversation with you, what’s the best way to connect?
Beth McClary-Wolford: They can go to my website and schedule a consultation at superpowerstrategies.com. Or email me at . Or call me at 423-551-3574.
Harley Green: Awesome. We’ll include all that in the show notes. If you got value from this episode, hit like and subscribe so you don’t miss future strategies to help you scale smarter. Know someone who could benefit? Share the episode—it might be exactly what they need. Thanks again for tuning in. See you next time.
How to Build Marketing Systems That Run Themselves (Without Burning Out)
Running a business shouldn’t mean running yourself into the ground.
In the latest episode of Executive Edge Live,Harley Green, Founder of Workergenix, sat down with four powerhouse leaders to explore one transformational idea: marketing that runs itself.
If you’re a founder, executive, or growth-minded leader tired of wearing all the hats, this conversation is your blueprint for reclaiming your time while driving predictable, recurring revenue.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
What Does “Marketing That Runs Itself” Actually Mean?
Frank Jones of OptSus Marketing broke it down early: it’s not about magic or passive income myths. It’s about separating effort from results by building systems that generate leads and nurture prospects without requiring your daily input.
Melanie Asher of Omicle emphasized the difference between timely and timeless marketing. You automate the timeless—the foundational brand and lead systems that work today, tomorrow, and a year from now.
Start With the Basics Before You Automate
Before automation, you need infrastructure. Frank highlighted key essentials:
A conversion-optimized, mobile-responsive website
Consistent SEO-driven blog content
Daily presence on relevant social platforms
Why? Because automation only scales what already works.
Eric Carrell of DoFollow.com added the importance of audience alignment: your site, your messaging, and your brand should reflect the expectations of your ideal customer—especially if you’re charging premium prices.
Know Your Data, But Focus on What Matters
Alex Hammerschmied of AutomateThis made it clear: “Revenue is vanity, profit is sanity.” He and Melanie both warned against obsessing over vanity metrics (likes, impressions) and instead urged founders to track metrics that directly tie to profit: leads, conversions, and actual sales.
Automation Is Not a Shortcut, It’s a Strategy
Automation works after you’ve done the hard work of:
Validating what converts
Understanding your ideal client persona
Creating messaging that resonates
Then, use email funnels, paid ads, and AI-powered repurposing tools to scale those systems.
Frank put it simply: “Start creating long-form content you enjoy, then repurpose it into multiple formats to collect real data and refine from there.”
Pro Tip: Don’t Skip the ICP Work
Eric’s biggest advice? Talk to 10-15 of your ideal clients to understand how they make decisions and where they consume content. That intel should guide everything—from your ads to your content to your messaging.
Final Advice from the Experts:
“If you wouldn’t hire someone untrained, don’t launch untested automation.” – Alex
“Just because you can automate it doesn’t mean you should.” – Melanie
“Define success by what drives profit, not what looks good on paper.” – Frank
How to Connect with the Panelists
Frank Jones – Founder, OptSus Marketing Website: https://optsus.com Newsletter: Grow with OptSus (weekly tips for small business growth)
Like what you read? Get weekly insights on scaling, efficiency, and profitability—straight to your inbox. Click here to subscribe.
Transcript
Harley Green: All right, hi everybody. Welcome to the Workergenix Scale Smart Grow Fast Executive Edge live session. This month, we are talking about marketing systems that run themselves. We really want to focus on how you can help your business with recurring revenue and having recurring marketing systems. We’ve got a panel of experts here who are going to share some incredible tips. I’m excited to dive right in. I’m Harley Green, the founder and CEO of Workergenix, where we help executives and leadership teams stay focused on high-impact activities by delegating the rest to highly skilled AI-leveraged ultimate executive assistants. Today’s conversation is about growth. It’s going to help growth-focused leaders get the information they need. We’re talking about marketing systems that run themselves—systems that bring in leads and revenue without requiring constant effort from you or your team. Our panelists are going to share proven ways to create predictable revenue, leverage automation tools, and free yourself from the marketing grind. I’m honored to be joined by an incredible group of experts who have each built scalable marketing solutions in their own businesses and for their clients.
First, we’ve got Frank. He’s the founder of OptSus Marketing and the creator of the OptSus Website Bundle. Frank helps businesses build automated SEO content and social foundations that consistently drive results. With nearly 30 years of experience and a background teaching at six universities, he’s helped companies grow 2X to 24X by mastering the essentials first.
Next, we’ve got Alex. He’s an automation specialist and co-founder of multiple businesses. From school dropout to architect to automation innovator, Alex specializes in healthcare data, process automation, and market automation for industries like pharma, insurance, and health tech startups. As a co-founder of ArztAPI, AutomateThis, and hartmut.io, he’s passionate about making automation both accessible and transformative.
Next up, we’ve got Eric, founder of Pocket Capital and DoFollow.com. Eric runs Pocket Capital, a holding company investing in early-stage digital services, and DoFollow.com, a link-building and AI visibility company for B2B SaaS. He brings firsthand experience in scaling visibility, growth, and recurring revenue through smart marketing infrastructure.
And last, but certainly not least, we have Melanie, a fractional CMO and founder of Omicle LLC, blending mindset, brand clarity, and operational efficiency. Melanie works with leaders ready to scale. She is a sought-after speaker and international author of three books on culture-driven brands and brings deep insight into how to align brand, culture, and systems for sustainable growth.
Thank you, everyone, for joining us. I’m going to dive right in. What does marketing that runs itself mean to you and why is it so important for business leaders today?
Melanie Asher: I’ll start this one. I love the whole concept of marketing that runs itself because so often it’s perceived that marketing is something you can outsource to the cheapest person. And the reality is, you get what you pay for with marketing. Marketing that runs itself is credible, it’s directly targeted to your audience, and it connects with them. It shortens the sales cycle and reduces the amount of day-to-day management time needed to consistently generate results.
Harley Green: Love that. Anyone else want to add?
Eric Carrell: Yes. In the past, we built marketing systems that required people to play various roles. With today’s technology and AI advancements, it’s easier to build systems that you set up once and they run themselves every month. It’s a lower lift with greater returns.
Frank Jones: I want to address the skeptics. When the title of this event was released, I got pushback that “marketing that runs itself” sounds like passive income—a Holy Grail that magically delivers checks to your mailbox. But those of us working online know that “mailbox money” comes from work done at some point. It’s about detaching the work from the revenue. You build systems that you can check in on from time to time. You’re leveraging your effort to create something that delivers results even when you’re not actively involved.
Melanie Asher: Yes, I describe it to clients as timeless versus timely. Timeless content is usable today, tomorrow, and even three years from now with minimal tweaking. Timely content, on the other hand, is relevant today and maybe tomorrow, but usually not next week. Timeless content can be automated effectively. Timely content can’t.
Alex Hammerschmied: Exactly. Frank used the term “system.” In all the automations we build, the most important thing is to clearly identify what you want to automate and why. You need to walk through your whole marketing process, often multiple times, to understand what’s working. That’s the only thing worth automating. It’s like building a car before designing the factory assembly line.
Frank Jones: Yes, I had a conversation yesterday where someone wanted to set up an email marketing automation system. Their goal was simply to not send emails themselves. They wanted a system to send them—but had no idea what to send or what results they wanted. That’s the problem. First, figure out what works. Then automate it. Don’t automate something that doesn’t already work.
Melanie Asher: Right. It’s much harder to fix broken automation after the fact.
Alex Hammerschmied: Exactly. Eric mentioned earlier that automation is viable now, especially with AI. You can create systems that learn from feedback loops—open rates, click-throughs, etc.—but you still need a baseline. You have to know what outcome you’re aiming for.
Harley Green: Yes, I’m hearing a theme: master the basics first. Then you can layer in AI, VAs, automation, and more. Frank, since you focus on mastering the basics, what should businesses have in place before implementing advanced automation?
Frank Jones: That’s exactly why I created our website bundle. This isn’t a sales pitch—it’s about the essentials. Everything costs either time or money. You can DIY these basics. Every business needs a responsive website that drives goals—leads, sales, conversions. I still see websites that are unusable on mobile. Over 60% of traffic is mobile, so this is huge.
Once you have a solid website, publish new content weekly. Post on social media daily. These are foundational. Without data—365 social posts and 52 blog posts—you have nothing to measure or refine. Most businesses don’t do this.
Eric Carrell: Also, build your website with your buyer in mind. If you’re charging premium, the site should feel premium. Do ICP research, define buyer personas, understand KPIs your audience cares about. Have a unique POV and proprietary methodology. Your website should show who you are, what you stand for, and how you solve specific problems.
Alex Hammerschmied: Yes, treat each marketing asset as an employee working 24/7 for you. If you don’t train your team properly, they won’t convert leads. A chef can’t sell shoes in a shoe store. Assets need the right messaging and tools to perform.
Frank Jones: Exactly. Many small businesses haven’t even considered personas. We use forms and AI prompts to help them generate those personas based on their own answers. Clients don’t need to start from scratch—they can respond to options and refine from there. Use tech to reduce friction and move people through your funnel faster.
Melanie Asher: Yes, I see the same thing. Companies are experts in their fields, but they forget to speak the customer’s language. They describe problems from their perspective, not how the customer sees them. If your messaging doesn’t match how people search or what algorithms reward, you won’t be found.
Alex Hammerschmied: Right. In automation, everything is built on data—but most of it is useless. Focus on actual outcomes: leads, conversions, sales.
Melanie Asher: Exactly. You can have thousands of page views, but if you’re being ranked as spam, that data is misleading. Numbers don’t lie, but they don’t tell the full story either. Understand the context.
Frank Jones: I’ve worked with enterprise clients where I had to ask repeatedly: “If this metric goes up, down, or stays the same—what will you change in your business?” If the answer is nothing, then that metric doesn’t belong on the dashboard.
Harley Green: Alex, where should people begin once they have the basics down?
Alex Hammerschmied: It depends on your niche. For our automation company, we don’t do lead gen on the website because there are only a finite number of potential customers. But if people are actively searching for your service—like e-commerce or local services—you should absolutely collect leads on your site. Drive traffic via paid ads, offer a white paper or incentive, follow up with an email sequence to gauge interest.
Frank Jones: Agreed. If you’re lucky enough to have e-commerce, optimize for actual purchases. But for most, leads are the closest KPI tied to revenue. Start there. Work backwards from revenue to build your system.
Melanie Asher: Yes, and don’t confuse B2B with B2C. Many B2B businesses fail because they set expectations like a B2C funnel. In high-ticket B2B, your site supports sales rather than generating leads directly. Understand your sales cycle.
Alex Hammerschmied: Right. People idolize brands like Red Bull or Starbucks without understanding their scale and strategy. Red Bull runs a full media company for brand awareness alone. You can’t replicate that. Focus on what drives profit in your business.
Frank Jones: Profit matters more than revenue. I spoke with someone spending $10K a month on marketing. They needed $100K in new revenue just to break even. If you don’t understand your margins, you won’t know whether marketing is working.
Melanie Asher: Also, don’t confuse marketing with advertising. Ads are short-term. Marketing is the full system. And when you stop ads, your visibility drops unless you’ve built organic traction. Platforms like LinkedIn reward engagement. My rule: for every 1 post you publish, engage meaningfully with 5 others.
Alex Hammerschmied: Exactly. That’s why I don’t like social media—it’s time-intensive and hard to automate. I prefer paid ads and content that performs long-term. My early YouTube videos still bring in leads today. That’s automation.
Harley Green: Let’s go around for a lightning round. What’s your best advice for leaders who want to start marketing automation this quarter?
Eric Carrell: Understand where your ICP consumes content and how they make decisions. Don’t start with SEO or ads. Start with conversations. Learn what influences them. Then you’ll know which channel and message will actually convert.
Melanie Asher: Just because you can automate doesn’t mean you should. Be intentional. Write for your best, most profitable client—the one you love working with. Speak directly to them.
Alex Hammerschmied: Start with one small automation. Stick with it until it works. Don’t bounce to the next shiny thing. Get one win, one sale, then iterate.
Frank Jones: Lay the foundation. Start with long-form content you enjoy. Use tools to repurpose it, distribute across platforms, and collect data. Define “perfect” based on what drives sales, not complexity.
Harley Green: Incredible advice. Final round—where can people connect with you?
Melanie Asher: Connect on LinkedIn at Melanie Asher, or visit omicle.com for bonus resources and my podcast.
Eric Carrell: Follow me on LinkedIn at Eric Carrell or check out dofollow.com for resources.
Frank Jones: Subscribe to my weekly email “Grow with OptSus” at optsus.com. I share one actionable marketing tip each week.
Harley Green: Thank you all! To our audience, thank you for joining us. Don’t forget to check out our free masterclass Delegate to Dominate at workergenix.com. See you next time on Executive Edge Live!
Your Website Is Speaking—Here’s How to Finally Listen (And Scale Smarter)
Your website isn’t just a digital brochure—it’s a goldmine of insights that most business leaders overlook. On the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast, host Harley Green sits down with digital strategy expert Philippa Gamse, author of Website Wealth and founder of Websites That Win, to discuss how smart leaders can turn web analytics into strategic growth tools.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
🔍 Why Web Analytics Matter More Than Ever
Philippa, a digital veteran with 25+ years of experience, explains that modern web analytics goes far beyond bounce rates and page views. Today, you can:
Track video watch time
Review screen recordings to understand user behavior
Analyze on-site searches to uncover product or content gaps
And it’s not about tracking every metric—it’s about tracking what matters.
💡 Turn Insights into Revenue
Here’s the gold: your website search bar is a marketing research tool in disguise. Philippa shares real-world examples where analyzing what users searched for (but didn’t find) led to new product ideas and service offerings.
She also stresses the importance of understanding user intent and mapping your site’s outcomes (like email signups or content engagement) to clear business goals.
🚫 Mistakes to Avoid
Overanalyzing everything. Focus only on metrics tied to actionable business outcomes.
Expecting exact numbers. Due to privacy settings and AI traffic, your analytics reflect trends, not absolutes.
Ignoring calls to action. Content that ends without a next step is a wasted opportunity.
🤖 How AI Is Changing Analytics
From traffic source labeling (AI bots now show up!) to predictive analytics, tools like Google Analytics 4 are evolving fast. But AI still can’t replace human strategy and creative decision-making. Think of it as a powerful intern—not your marketing director.
✅ Start Here: One Smart Move
Philippa’s challenge to leaders: 👉 If you’re not using analytics, start today. 👉 If you are, use it to answer good questions—not just to stare at traffic numbers.
Tracking a few meaningful metrics tied to real business outcomes can unlock faster, smarter growth.
📚 Resources from Philippa Gamse
Book:Website Wealth: A Business Leader’s Guide to Driving Real Value from Your Analytics
🔹 Your business can only grow as fast as your clarity. Don’t let busywork bury your potential.
Schedule a free discovery call with Workergenix and discover how a strategic executive assistant can help you focus on what truly moves the needle.
Like what you read? Get weekly insights on scaling, efficiency, and profitability—straight to your inbox. Click here to subscribe.
Transcript
Harley Green: Welcome back to the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast.Now your website is speaking to you. Most leaders just don’t know how to listen. In this episode, Philippa Gamse, digital strategy veteran and author of Website Wealth, a business leader’s guide for driving real value from your analytics, shares how decision makers can use web analytics to uncover hidden opportunities, eliminate waste, and make smarter business moves.
With over 25 years of experience consulting on high-performing websites around the world, Philippa offers some simple, jargon-free strategies that turn data into actionable insights and growth.
Philippa Gamse: Hi Harley, I’m great. How are you?
Harley Green: I’m doing wonderful. Now, tell us a little bit more about your background. How did you get into doing website analytics?
Philippa Gamse: Well, this tells you that I’ve been around a little while, but I’ve been using the web for a long time. Before Google Analytics, I had a friend where I live in Santa Cruz who made a very early analytics program called ClickTracks. It was the most intuitive, easy-to-use, graphically helpful program that helped small businesses understand what was going on with their websites. I loved it and got involved. I loved analytics and the whole concept. Then Google came along with Google Analytics, which was free, unlike my friend’s program. That was the end of that, but I was hooked on analytics. So that’s where it started.
Harley Green: You’ve been in digital strategy and analytics for a long time, as you mentioned. How has your approach to web analytics evolved, and why would you say it’s more relevant than ever for leaders today?
Philippa Gamse: Because of the power of how you can program it. It used to tell us fairly basic stuff like how many people come to your website or bounce rates. Now we can go much deeper into user behavior. We can look at screen recordings showing how users move about on the page. We can figure out how much of a video people watch. Analytics is supposed to be anonymous, so we don’t know exactly who is on the site, but we can understand visitor behavior. That helps us give visitors what they want, which makes them feel good about what we do—ultimately leading to more conversions.
Harley Green: You mentioned all this information from analytics. I’m sure a lot of people listening might feel overwhelmed. What’s the first thing they should look for that actually moves the needle?
Philippa Gamse: When I work with clients, I tell them you don’t have to look at analytics yourself—find someone who can help. But you, as the business owner, must know what your website is supposed to do. Your site could be selling products, building authority, showcasing videos or podcasts, growing your email list, or supporting customers. Whatever its purpose, you have to be clear on it first. That allows us to measure whether it’s achieving those goals. Looking at numbers without context doesn’t help. My favorite question is, “So what?” You’ve got X number of visitors—so what? Are they the right visitors? Did they do what you wanted them to do? That’s what matters.
Harley Green: One thing you talk about is hidden gems in web analytics. What are some surprising insights that businesses often overlook?
Philippa Gamse: Once you’ve sorted out the basics, you can explore more. One of my favorite tools is the on-site search engine—tracking what users search for on your website. It’s a fantastic source of marketing research. It tells you the language people use, which is helpful if you’re in an industry with technical jargon. It also shows you demand for things you may not offer yet, which could lead to new products or services. You might also identify new target markets by tracking where visitors come from. You can find leaks where people leave when they shouldn’t. Calls to action are crucial—blogs, for example, should always end with a next step. Don’t miss opportunities to further engage visitors.
Harley Green: That’s so smart—using data you already have. On the flip side, what are some of the biggest mistakes leaders make when trying to use analytics to guide business strategy?
Philippa Gamse: A big one is having unrealistic expectations. There are constraints, especially with privacy rules. Analytics data represents a sample, not the full picture. Some users won’t be tracked, and different tools measure things differently. Analytics should not be your official tool of record—that’s your CRM. Trying to reconcile numbers between tools can be frustrating and isn’t usually helpful unless there’s a significant discrepancy.
Harley Green: I’m sure there have been changes with AI and crawlers. How should we interpret analytics differently now?
Philippa Gamse: I use Google Analytics mostly. We’re now seeing AI traffic sources show up in reports. You can tell how visitors reached your site—from search engines, social media, email, and now, AI. Google Analytics also uses AI to highlight anomalies or traffic peaks. While it might just tell you something obvious like a newsletter spike, it can also generate charts and graphs more efficiently. But AI can’t replace the human element—like deciding to launch a new product based on user behavior. That creative strategy still needs a person.
Harley Green: Awesome. How should people start integrating web analytics into their broader business planning?
Philippa Gamse: It should be a core part of your strategy. Analytics can inform predictive models—for example, estimating inventory needs for e-commerce. You should evaluate if your current strategy is working and use data to guide future moves. Make it part of your ongoing business planning.
Harley Green: As companies grow and gather more data, when does it make sense to delegate analytics tasks?
Philippa Gamse: Don’t try to measure everything. Measure what matters—metrics you can act on. Focus on solving one problem at a time. If you’re changing multiple things at once, it’s hard to know what caused the change. It’s better to track a few current priorities and test them thoroughly.
Harley Green: You’ve taught at business schools and consulted internationally. What’s one mindset shift that helps leaders become more data-driven?
Philippa Gamse: Let the data speak for itself. Politics still exists in business. Sometimes, the highest-paid person’s opinion (the HIPPO) dominates, even when they’re wrong. Show them the data. If something isn’t working and you can quantify the potential losses, it’s easier to get buy-in for change. Trusting the data is a critical mindset shift.
Harley Green: How often should business leaders look at their website data? Daily, weekly?
Philippa Gamse: It depends. If you’re launching products or running ads, monitor it closely. Social media ad performance often under-delivers, so watch it. If things are stable, you can check less often. Tailor your cadence to what’s going on in your business.
Harley Green: I’ve heard of situations where ad companies and analytics data don’t align. That can really affect trust and accountability.
Philippa Gamse: Absolutely. Analytics gives you visibility and helps hold vendors accountable. If you’re investing in ads, you need to know if they’re delivering results.
Harley Green: For someone underusing their website, what’s one action they can take this week?
Philippa Gamse: If you’re not using analytics, get them installed—otherwise, you’re flying blind. If you are using them, use them to answer meaningful questions. Don’t just glance at traffic spikes and assume everything’s fine. Be strategic—pick a few key goals and measure how well your site supports them.
Harley Green: Excellent strategic tips today, Philippa. If people want to connect or learn more about your book, where should they go?
Philippa Gamse: The book is called Website Wealth: A Business Leader’s Guide to Driving Real Value from Your Analytics. It’s jargon-free, full of stories and examples. My website is WebsitesThatWin.com, and I’m happy to connect on LinkedIn.
Harley Green: Thank you again. We’ll have those links in the show notes. If you got value from this episode, hit like and subscribe so you don’t miss future strategies to help you scale smarter. Share this episode with a colleague who needs to hear it. And if you’re on a podcast platform, leave us a quick rating—it helps more business leaders find the show. Thanks for tuning in!
How to Build a Personal Brand That Converts with Erik Cabral
Your personal brand is more than just a logo or a tagline — it’s the foundation of your business growth. In a recent episode of Scale Smart, Grow Fast podcast, Harley Green sat down with Erik Cabral, founder of OnAir Brands, to talk about how entrepreneurs can harness clarity, podcasting, and mission-driven branding to create lasting impact.
Preferred listening on the go? Catch the full podcast episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Why Clarity is Non-Negotiable
Erik’s first lesson is simple but powerful: clarity creates momentum. Many entrepreneurs suffer from shiny object syndrome — chasing too many ideas at once and burning out. Instead, Erik advises narrowing your focus: define who you are, who you serve, and what problem you solve. Without clarity, your message won’t connect, and your brand won’t convert.
Personal Brand as the Umbrella
If you run multiple businesses or projects, your personal brand becomes the umbrella. Erik points to leaders like Elon Musk and Tony Robbins, whose personal brands open doors for all their ventures. By building your brand DNA around your values and mission, you allow your audience to connect with you first, making it easier to introduce new offers, services, or businesses later.
Podcasting: The Ultimate Growth Tool
According to Erik, podcasting is more than content — it’s a networking and growth engine. Instead of “picking someone’s brain over coffee,” podcasting allows you to lead with value by giving guests a platform to share their message. It’s also a long-term play: success comes not from three episodes, but from consistent creation and commitment.
To stay sustainable, Erik emphasizes systems and delegation. Entrepreneurs should focus on their strengths and eventually outsource editing, design, and promotion — freeing time to run the business while the podcast works as a powerful marketing channel.
Turning Clients into Brand Champions
Your best marketing asset is often your satisfied clients. Erik encourages entrepreneurs to turn happy customers into brand champions by collecting testimonials, referrals, and even co-created stories. These champions amplify your message and build credibility far faster than ads or self-promotion.
Faith, Mission, and Erik’s Book
Erik’s journey also highlights the importance of a mission bigger than yourself. His book, Be Your Brand to Glorify God, reframes personal branding as a way to serve others and lead with values, not ego. For him, success is about creating impact through service — and entrepreneurs can do the same by aligning their brand with purpose.
Key Takeaways for Entrepreneurs
Clarity comes first: Define your mission, audience, and values.
Personal brand > business brand: Build trust in you, then extend it to your ventures.
Podcast strategically: Use it for value, networking, and long-term growth.
Delegate smartly: Free your time by outsourcing tactical tasks.
Turn influence into opportunity: Leverage testimonials and client stories to scale credibility.
🚀 Ready to build a brand that converts? Start by defining your values with Erik’s free Core Values Worksheet at www.beyourbrandNOW.com.
🔹 Your business can only grow as clear as your brand. Don’t let busywork hold you back from building influence and opportunity. Schedule a free discovery call with Workergenix today and learn how to delegate smarter so you can focus on growing your personal brand
Like what you read? Get weekly insights on scaling, efficiency, and profitability—straight to your inbox. Click here to subscribe.
Transcript
Harley Green: All right, hey guys, welcome back to the Scale Smart Grow Fast podcast. Your personal brand is one of your most powerful business assets, if you know how to use it. In this episode, Erik Cabral, founder of OnAir Brands and trusted advisor to Fortune 100 and Inc 5000 companies, shares how to craft a message that connects, build a brand that converts, and leverage podcasting to grow your business. With over 25 years in brand strategy, Erik’s going to offer a proven mission-driven framework for turning clarity into momentum and influence into opportunity. Erik, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. How are you doing today?
Erik Cabral: Fantastic, Harley. Thank you so much for having me.
Harley Green: It’s our pleasure. Now, Erik, tell us a little bit more about your background. How did you get into marketing and doing podcasting?
Erik Cabral: Yeah, it was not by design for sure. Corporate America and school, traditional college and finding my way up the corporate ladder was a wonderful way to make a living. Creating artwork and logos in the beginning, very early stages of my career, was my first. I’ll never forget, Harley, a postcard — like a four by six postcard that was going to go direct mail. They called it that for all the kids out there who don’t remember mail. But yeah, you would get these postcards and I was like, “Mom, look,” and I took a stack of them. I was like, “Look, my first printout, there are hundreds of thousands of these out there.” And then eventually the coolest thing was seeing my work on billboards driving down a highway. I would see, “Look, I designed that billboard. How cool.” So that was really my background. I just loved designing, loved graphic design. At the time they called it commercial arts and people would ask, “What’s that?” But eventually all these tools became more and more familiar — Adobe and all these guys. And when I finally left after 21 years in corporate America, I was so done. I wanted to retire, at least from the art world. And I got into, of all things, real estate investing. And my wife was like, “You don’t know anything about real estate. What are you talking about? What are you doing?”
Harley Green: You.
Erik Cabral: And I was like, I just want to build wealth. I was in a wealth creation phase of my life. And I was very focused on how can I get there very quickly. You know, I lost 20 years not knowing anything about finance, being financially illiterate. And I was like, “Oh, I read this book from Robert Kiyosaki, Rich Dad Poor Dad,” and then eventually read Cash Flow Quadrant. I was like, “Oh, wait a minute.” In this quadrant he’s talking about the employee, which was me for the majority of my years. And then it was like, now you need to own a business or become an investor. So there were all these different avenues. I was like, I want to own a business and I want to become an investor. And I want to make passive income. So that’s really where it all started. And once I jumped into the investing community, I realized that the one thing that they had in common was an abundant mindset. And I came from the opposite — completely scarcity-minded environment where it was dog-eat-dog, everybody was just against each other. And it was really bizarre to be around people that wanted to help you. Especially the most successful people would always end the conversation with, “How can I help you? How can I provide more value in your life?” And that was the game changer. And I just said, I need to be around these people and I need to record these conversations I’m having in the hallways for my sake, so I can remember these conversations and just extract value out of it. And that turned into a podcast and people started to point to me like the guy recording a conversation as the podcast guy. And it wasn’t necessarily a podcast at the time. So that’s really where it all started.
Harley Green: I love that growth and transition and especially the abundance mindset. And it really has shown through in your success and how you’ve helped others too now. Speaking of that, you’ve helped build so many brands. What would you say is the first thing you look for when helping someone define their personal or business brand?
Erik Cabral: The first thing I look for is how much clarity they have. A lot of us can have all these ideas, but they’re not very focused. If you have a lot of great ideas and a lot of what we call in the entrepreneurial world shiny object syndrome, then your focus and lack of clarity will spread you thin. I was guilty of this for sure because I started four companies out of the gate. I was so excited to be out there, Harley. I was like, I’m going to create a real estate empire, then I’m going to build a media agency, then I’m going to have an event company and a coaching company. Literally all these things I was doing at the same time thinking that was cool, that was trendy, that hustle-and-grind mentality. And it didn’t serve me. It really hurt me in the long term. Now, I benefited greatly from it for sure because it made for a lot of connections. All the people that you may have mentioned in my bio were a result of me creating all that. But it was a quick avenue to burnout. There was no way I was going to sustain that. So eventually over the years, I had to shut down one, two, three and eventually all the companies so I could focus on one. So that’s the first thing I look for when I speak to an entrepreneur who’s all over the place: What are we focusing on? What do you have complete clarity on? And who do you serve? Like who is the audience for that particular product that you have? Because yes, I understand successful entrepreneurs have four, five, six businesses and they’re running them all successfully. But for this particular one, what is the message? What is the clear mission? And who does it help? That is typically the very first thing that I look for.
Harley Green: How do you help other entrepreneurs that you’re working with who might be in that same situation you were in, with the hustle culture of, “I’m going to do four or five different businesses because that’s cool”? How do you help walk them back from that and get that clarity?
Erik Cabral: I’m a huge proponent of your personal brand and ensuring that if you have multiple businesses, even more so the reason you should focus on your personal brand. Because then everything sits and falls under that umbrella. Let’s take Elon Musk, for example. He’s got The Boring Company, Tesla, the solar company — multiple companies. Same thing with Tony Robbins. I think he always boasts, he’s like, “I’m running 186 businesses right now.” He literally has tons of businesses that he’s involved in. But the umbrella of Tony Robbins is what sits at the top: his personal brand. So I always try to encourage our clients or prospects who have multiple businesses and want to talk about everything — if you want to do that, and you don’t want to take my advice, let’s build a personal brand that has its own systems and your beliefs so that people can fall in love with you. And then when they’re ready, they’re going to raise their hand and go, “Hey, Harley, I love when you talk about family. I love when you talk about homeschooling,” whatever it is that you want to talk about that clearly identifies who you are so they can identify with those values. Now they’re like, “I didn’t know you had this type of company. I didn’t know you had that type of company.” It opens the door for the conversation. So when they’re ready, they want to do business with you — the person, not the company.
Harley Green: Speaking of that personal brand, is it more important to focus on your personal mission and values, or do you help people think more about the ideal client they want to connect with? Do you tailor it to resonate with them, or is there some kind of in-between?
Erik Cabral: Our process is typically to really boil down who you are, because a lot of people you’d be surprised don’t know who they are. Or if they do, they’ve never verbalized it and they’ve never put them into single-word values, which helps them to communicate. That’s what we’re all about: we have to communicate and we have to communicate clearly. Because if we don’t understand our mission and how we serve people, then how are others supposed to understand as well? So we have to gain clarity first and then we can help and serve more people. For example, I have tons of people in my network that love to do cold plunges, heat therapy, all this biohacking. But say they’re real estate investors, and then they’ll often come to me and go, “Erik, man, everybody’s reaching out to me. I’m getting so much feedback. But why is everybody asking me how to build a cold plunge in their garage?” And then I look at their feed and I’m like, “Because all you’re doing is talking about cold plunge therapy.” Is that what you want to do? Do you want to build a lifestyle business brand? “No, I’m a real estate investor.” Then stop talking about the things you don’t want to serve or solve. So that’s the biggest challenge. I want to make sure our clients, number one, know who they are and what the brand DNA is for them. And then we can really dive into who they serve.
Harley Green: Well, and speaking of that clarity and who you serve, what are some other common branding mistakes that even smart businesses make and how can they fix them?
Erik Cabral: It’s this — where they try to create a message for everybody. That’s a huge one. Especially if you’re coming out of the gate as a new entrepreneur, you don’t want to alienate or push out potential buyers, customers, or clients. And I get that, I was the same way. But at some point, you’re going to have enough case studies and enough wins where you can start to identify the common thread throughout all of the people that you’ve been helping. For instance, years down the line after we started producing a lot of podcasts, I zoomed out and then looked at all the clients. I was like, “Oh, they’re all men. They’re all middle-aged. They’re all family men. A lot of them are Christians.” I was like, this is my avatar. These are the guys who I’ve been creating podcasts and serving over the past three, four years. So then that became one of our avatars. I can speak directly to that person to the point where I’ve given them a name. I know what they eat. I know what they do on their time off. I know what type of cars they drive. Those are the type of things where we can get really granular so that when you do record and you do create messages, you’re speaking specifically to the person you know you can help.
Harley Green: Speaking of speaking to the person you can help — podcasting is obviously a huge part of your strategy. Why do you see it as such a powerful tool for brand building and business growth?
Erik Cabral: Gosh. When I started not too long ago in 2017, it was still, “Hey, can I take you out for a cup of coffee, Harley, and pick your brain?” And when I started building my real estate portfolio, it wasn’t just kids or younger people. It was anyone that saw me having success relatively quickly. They’d say, “He bought a multifamily building in less than a year.” So people were asking me out to coffee. It got to the point where I was like, let’s just have a call. And then I started to look up to others as well. Like, how did you get there? I want to get to 24 units, I want to get to 100 doors. And I would ask for their time. But coffee is never really that enticing. But a podcast is — “Would you be interested in having a conversation on my podcast?” At the time I could confidently say it was 100% yes. Everyone would say yes to that. It’s such a wonderful opportunity for you to lead with value and say, “Hey, I have a platform for you to speak your message to my community” versus “You want to have coffee?” where I’m just pulling knowledge from you but not really giving any value back. Podcasting is such a great vehicle for creating value for others and putting it out there. Everybody wins with a podcast.
Harley Green: With podcasting and someone building their personal brand, do you have a recommendation or guidelines when it comes to deciding whether to have your own podcast, do the podcast guesting circuit, or a combination of both? How do you help people navigate that?
Erik Cabral: A combination is the best strategy. But the question comes down to bandwidth — how much time do you have? Starting a podcast is easy, but it’s also hard. In 2021, we had the biggest spike in creating podcasts for our clients. Everybody wanted a podcast after 2020. Everyone was bored at home. And then it went down. In 2022, podfade is what we call it. People don’t make it past three months or 12 episodes. What I find is that podcasts can be easy to start — low-hanging fruit — but really challenging and difficult to maintain because people lack systems, processes, and teams. If you’re a solopreneur, at some point you’re going to have to pass this off to a team, whether you develop your own or hire a company like ours. Podcasts are a long-term play. You can’t go in and say, “I’m gonna start a podcast for three to six months and see how it goes.” No, you have to commit. Just like YouTube — you have to commit to 100 videos before you see the fruit that comes from all that hard work and energy you’re pouring in. So yes, go in with a long-term mindset, have a budget for it, and don’t wing it. Develop systems and processes if you’re doing it yourself so that you can document and pass this off to an editor because it’s not sustainable otherwise. You need to run your business in order to have success, but the podcast can be used to support that. The podcast has to lead with value and entertainment. Information is abundant everywhere, but if you can be entertaining and bring your unique perspective, that’s what draws people in.
Harley Green: So when someone knows they’re good, they’ve heard you say, “It’s not easy, you have to stick with it,” but it’s still hard — what are some tips or strategies you offer people to stick with podcasting for the long term and not burn out or get bored of it?
Erik Cabral: Looking for unrealistic results can really deter you long term. Instead, flip the coin and say, “Who can I help and who can I serve?” Look for those stories and opportunities when you’re creating your content. For example, years into my podcast journey, a listener reached out to me. He shared, “Thank you for sharing the story about how you had to fold one of your companies because I am in the process of doing that and I’m alone. I felt like such a loser, and hearing you — who I see as a success — made me feel like there’s a community. Thank you.” I still live off the fumes of that conversation. That’s the value I’m providing. If it helped one person, imagine all the people who didn’t reach out. Always take those stories, put them in your back pocket, and use them as fuel to continue on your journey. It’s not about ROI, it’s about who you are helping, who you are serving, and how you’re inspiring people to keep going even when it feels hard.
Harley Green: I love that story of getting feedback and how it’s still motivating you today. I get the same thing — random texts from someone in my network who I had no idea was listening to the podcast, saying, “Really loved that episode with Erik, talking about these things.” So I encourage all of you listening to podcasts — shoot a text or an email to the host of the podcast you’re listening to. It goes so far and helps keep the podcasts you like and support going. It’s an amazing thing. So really appreciate you bringing that part up, Erik.
Erik Cabral: So true. Yeah.
Harley Green: Talking about the effort that goes into these podcasts — it can be very time-consuming, not just the number of episodes but also processing, managing guests, editing, publishing, promoting. At what point do you typically see it makes sense to start handing off some of that process to a service like yours, or maybe an assistant?
Erik Cabral: If you have a budget, figure out what that is. In our intake form, we try to figure out if clients qualify to work with us or if we can serve them at the highest value. We’re $2,500 a month at minimum, with other services above that. At minimum, I need to know if you have $30,000 to invest annually in what we do. If not, it may be best for you to hire a bunch of VAs to do this, whether they’re $5 to $8 an hour. But make sure you check their work carefully. Everyone’s going to say they have editing skills and design skills. Ask for samples. Some people have even sent me our own work as their sample. Get referrals, ensure that the work is truly theirs. If you build your own team, you’ll need at least someone skilled in editing videos — that’s a different beast — and someone skilled in design. Not just basic Canva design, but someone who can make it shine. If you’re just starting out, don’t let polish hold you back. Figure out what your budget is, even if it’s $100 a month. Find someone to help you and start to take those little things off your plate so you can focus on building your business, doing sales, and doing marketing versus tactical tasks.
Harley Green: One thing you talk about is building brand champions — people who can amplify the message. What’s your take on that and how can companies do that intentionally?
Erik Cabral: Brand champions develop over time when you continue to serve your clients at the highest possible level. Those are basically your testimonials and case studies. Whenever you go to someone that you served and ask, “How did I do?” and they say, “You’re amazing,” that’s the perfect opportunity to say, “Hey, can I get a testimonial from you? Can you record something really quick, like right here and say that again?” And then from there, you start to realize you can actually leverage that to become a brand champion for you. Because then you can continue to ask them, “Do you know anyone like you that needs our services? Do you know anyone like you that could help us grow?” For sure they love you, right? And you’ve probably given them super discounts. Typically, in the earlier stages of business, they’re getting a really good deal, they’re grandfathered in so to speak. Those are the brand champions you want to continue to build. Just love on them, continue to serve beyond the agreement that you had, and it will happen over time for sure.
Harley Green: If someone hasn’t been really thinking about or familiar with this concept of brand champions, but they’ve been established for a few years and have some clients, what’s a good way to try to bring that up with clients who might be happy but haven’t come forward yet? Or if they did come forward in the past and the business wasn’t ready to capture that appropriately, what would you suggest?
Erik Cabral: If it’s a client that is no longer your client, you can still reach out. Reach out to a bunch of them and say, “Hey, I’m looking to grow my business. If you enjoyed working together, would you mind referring someone like you that we can help?” And then if you do that enough, someone will hopefully be willing to record a testimonial for you or at the very least, write a review. Here’s another hack: I’ll write the testimonials for some of my clients that I know are super busy — in their voice. This was before AI, but now you could really do it with AI. You can say, “Write a review of my services in their voice.” You can even take a blog article or something they’ve written and put it into ChatGPT, and then it’ll draft it. Keep it short, just a sentence or two, and then send it over to them. For example, in my book I have six quotes, of which only one I had to do this for. I knew him very well, and I said, “Hey Rami, I know you’re busy. I know you’ve been meaning to do this. I did it for you. Here are three options all in your voice.” He looked at them, said, “These are great,” and made some edits. It got him started, and it lit the fire. People have even done that for me — they’ll say, “Hey Erik, here’s a review I wrote in your voice.” That’s when I realized, wow, this is effective and really helpful.
Harley Green: That’s a smart hack. Well, you mentioned your book, Erik. Tell us a little bit more about it.
Erik Cabral: Three years ago, I committed to writing a book. I signed up with Chandler Bolt’s Self-Publishing School. It was a $5K program; I didn’t do the $10K option where they handle everything. What they gave me was a monthly coach and access to a library of content. But I realized monthly coaching wasn’t my thing. I sat on it for three years, and the real issue was I didn’t feel interesting or worthy enough to write the book. Every time I read it, I thought it was terrible. It was all about me. But through my faith journey, I realized personal branding doesn’t have to be egocentric. In Christianity, it’s not about us — it’s about God. So I shifted the whole theme of the book to glorify Him, not me, and everything started to flow. I wrote the book in less than 24 hours after that realization. The book is called Be Your Brand to Glorify God. It’s about building your personal brand and company around your mission to serve — just like Jesus did when He washed His disciples’ feet. In business, we should do the same: love on our clients, serve them, and make the world better. The book is about giving Him the glory, not building for our own egos.
Harley Green: That’s powerful. Thank you so much for sharing these incredible tips and strategies, your story, and your book as well. If people want to learn more about you or get a copy of the book, what’s the best way for them to get in touch?
Erik Cabral: For sure. Go to www.beyourbrandNOW.com. You can see the book there, and you can actually download a free core values worksheet we mentioned earlier — a simple exercise to start identifying your core values so you can put them out into the world. That’s at www.beyourbrandNOW.com.
Harley Green: Awesome. For those of you listening, we’ll have the link in the show notes. If you got value from this episode, do one quick thing: hit like and subscribe so you don’t miss future strategies to help you scale smarter. And maybe you know a business owner or colleague who could use this information — share the episode with them. It could be exactly what they need right now. And if you’re listening on a podcast platform, leave us a quick rating. It helps us reach more leaders like you. As always, thank you for tuning in. We’ll see you on the next one.
